http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker en-US Sat, 20 Mar 2010 19:26:41 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 q http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/search.php http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker/page/2#post-778466 Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:03:24 +0000 chargebikes 778466@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>The simple reason we (Charge Bikes) use plate dropouts on the Titanium frames is not because of cost, but because it is a neater and more supportive solution for the rear disk mount. If the disk mount is a part of the dropout, as it is on our plate dropouts, less stress is placed on the rear chainstay under braking. It does away with the need for messy brake bridges and we have yet to have a failure at this point on a Duster Ti, Blender Ti (4X frame) and Iron ti (Dirt Jump frame). Put simply it works. </p> <p>Cheers</p> <p>Nick </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker/page/2#post-768126 Fri, 16 Oct 2009 15:31:26 +0000 james-o 768126@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>&quot;anyone know where the TI Commencals have been made?&quot;</p> <p>yes - and i&#39;d trust them when it comes to ti. not seen one come back at madison. </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker/page/2#post-767438 Fri, 16 Oct 2009 12:45:16 +0000 kamina 767438@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Does anyone know where the TI Commencals have been made? I&#39;ve been offered a new 2008 flame for an irresistible price... </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker/page/2#post-767293 Fri, 16 Oct 2009 12:14:21 +0000 59 times the pain 767293@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>I think the dropouts on the dialled bikes are a good design. Sort of a cross between the two. Loads of weld area for the stays but they are also pretty big and plate like. He doesnt use a brace for the disc brakes either. </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker/page/2#post-767287 Fri, 16 Oct 2009 12:13:42 +0000 nicko74 767287@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>but the 456 is not meant to be pretty </blockquote><br /> Phew - I thought you thought it WAS pretty, like a parent who can&#39;t see that their baby basically looks like Mr Potato Head... <img src="http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/my-plugins/bb-smilies/default/icon_wink.gif" title=";)" class="bb_smilies" alt=""/> </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker/page/2#post-767126 Fri, 16 Oct 2009 11:33:22 +0000 Sanny 767126@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Cynic-al</p> <p>For me, seeing any bike brake at a weld that is only three months old would give me cause to consider whether or not to buy one. Going back to my original question, I&#39;m still undecided as to whether this style of design is one that is potentially weaker than others used. I&#39;m not saying that anyone should not buy On one nor any other brand for that matter on the basis of one broken frame, only that it would make me think twice. I guess that is just human nature! <img src="http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/my-plugins/bb-smilies/default/icon_biggrin.gif" title=":D" class="bb_smilies" alt=""/> </p> <p>Ultimately, all bikes will break at some point. My trusty 5 Spot snapped clean through at the weld on the seat tube after 5 years of very extensive use while the aluminium headset insert in my Hummer decided to part company from the frame a few weeks ago much to my surprise! It doesn&#39;t mean they are necessarily badly made or designed nor that all Turners and Coves should be consigned to the scrap heap.</p> <p>Being Scottish, I could have had two 456s for the price of my old Hummer. <img src="http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/my-plugins/bb-smilies/default/icon_wink.gif" title=":wink:" class="bb_smilies" alt=""/> </p> <p>Cheers</p> <p>Sanny</p> <p>PS Fair play to Dave at Planet X for coming on with info about the new strut. There&#39;s a lot to be said for dealing with a UK business that clearly cares about its customers and it&#39;s public perception. </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker/page/2#post-766429 Fri, 16 Oct 2009 08:58:51 +0000 Michael B 766429@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>druid – I bought one of the previous design after seeing that photo. I&#39;m happy I love the bike. </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker/page/2#post-765570 Thu, 15 Oct 2009 20:38:20 +0000 daveplanetx 765570@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>The really funny thing is that we had no idea Mark has added the strut to the rear stays until we opened the boxes yesterday , ( maybe I vaguely recall him saying something) but we ordered these frames way back in May and its been a very long delivery wait and I cant remember what happened last week let alone May. There were a few breakages , maybe 3 or 4 (out of quite a lot) , so its just a bit of additional strength .</p> <p>A bit of a breakdown in communication , cant say were fans of the strut , and it could have been made much prettier , but the 456 is not meant to be pretty so on the basis weve got quite a lot , and we paid in May ! , and we now need some cash for our big move were moving em out . </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker/page/2#post-765530 Thu, 15 Oct 2009 20:28:34 +0000 ti_pin_man 765530@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>The lynsky built ti ibis limited has a similar strutt. They should have made them with the same disk mount as Steve potts makes... Stunning and disperses the stress down the tube I am told! </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker/page/2#post-765423 Thu, 15 Oct 2009 19:55:01 +0000 kelvin 765423@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Would that strut on the new on-one even be noticed on a fully built bike? </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker/page/2#post-764919 Thu, 15 Oct 2009 17:24:35 +0000 aracer 764919@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>Not sure what point you are making</blockquote><br /> The point I was making was all in the bit you snipped! </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker/page/2#post-764913 Thu, 15 Oct 2009 17:21:54 +0000 Pook 764913@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>How do you strike the balance between style and substance though? Surely strength is far more important than looks? </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker/page/2#post-764811 Thu, 15 Oct 2009 16:42:23 +0000 haddock 764811@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Prob not! A fair few commencals have popped up on here! Still nice bikes though if you get a good un. </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker/page/2#post-764799 Thu, 15 Oct 2009 16:36:51 +0000 druidh 764799@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>haddock - Member<br /> mmm, not been loads of snapped ti 456&#39;s popping up on here, though admit its quite an addition to the frame in light of that pic.</blockquote></p> <p>I wonder if the proportion of snapped frames is more or less than Commencal or Cotic? </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker/page/2#post-764780 Thu, 15 Oct 2009 16:30:03 +0000 haddock 764780@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>mmm, not been loads of snapped ti 456&#39;s popping up on here, though admit its quite an addition to the frame in light of that pic. </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker/page/2#post-764766 Thu, 15 Oct 2009 16:24:16 +0000 druidh 764766@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Haddock - not mine, just linking the two facts together. On One obviously think there may be a design fault or they would not have needed that change. If I&#39;d bought one of the previous design, I&#39;d be a bit concerned. </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker/page/2#post-764743 Thu, 15 Oct 2009 16:18:07 +0000 haddock 764743@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>So why the extra brace then if there&#39;s not a problem? Have On One had many of these back?</p> <p>Druidh - did that just fail from regular riding, what caused it? </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker/page/2#post-764651 Thu, 15 Oct 2009 15:59:06 +0000 cynic-al 764651@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Sanny - One bike breaks at the welds and you tar all of them with that brush? </p> <p>Not sure if the point has already been made, but there may well be greater variation in weld strength than the strength of the dropout design.</p> <p><blockquote>aracer - Member </p> <p>or you could conclude that some people are not good bike testers and some are; knowing what to look for and how to test for it is different to just being given a bike and asked for a comment.</p> <p>You&#39;re right - the crucial part is knowing what you&#39;re looking for. </blockquote><br /> Not sure what point you are making, point I&#39;d be making is that there&#39;s nowhere near enough evidence to say &quot;it has the plate dropouts which we think are weaker&quot;, especially after a short test. </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker/page/2#post-764451 Thu, 15 Oct 2009 15:18:44 +0000 Sanny 764451@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Brant</p> <p>At that price, it&#39;s a tough call. The cheap Scotsman in me thinks that&#39;s a bit of a bargain if the brace is a solution which would stop the frame from snapping. <img src="http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/my-plugins/bb-smilies/default/icon_biggrin.gif" title=":D" class="bb_smilies" alt=""/> Whether I would be pragmatic enough to ignore the fact that the not necessarily statistically sound sample of one of my mates ending up doing a very long walk off a big mountain coloured my judgement of Lynskey made frames is another question. <img src="http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/my-plugins/bb-smilies/default/icon_wink.gif" title=":wink:" class="bb_smilies" alt=""/> </p> <p>Cheers</p> <p>Sanny </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker/page/2#post-764013 Thu, 15 Oct 2009 13:30:24 +0000 funkynick 764013@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Hmmmm... directional bike frames anyone? To go with the chain lube?</p> <p>Oh, hold on.... :oD </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker/page/2#post-764012 Thu, 15 Oct 2009 13:30:23 +0000 druidh 764012@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3168/2936268718_06632c841b_b.jpg"></p> <p><img src="http://www.on-one-shop.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/ti456fragment.jpg"></p> <p><blockquote>Mark Lynskey just added a rear strengthening strut to increase strength on the rear end, its not the prettiest addition or the subtlest, .....</blockquote> </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker/page/2#post-764006 Thu, 15 Oct 2009 13:28:10 +0000 aracer 764006@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>or you could conclude that some people are not good bike testers and some are; knowing what to look for and how to test for it is different to just being given a bike and asked for a comment.</blockquote><br /> You&#39;re right - the crucial part is knowing what you&#39;re looking for. Helps a lot to know when you&#39;re riding a ti frame that it&#39;s supposed to be springy and comfortable. It tends to be the people who don&#39;t know that (or don&#39;t know it&#39;s a ti frame as somebody sneaky has painted it to look like a steel one) who have trouble perceiving those qualities. </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker/page/2#post-763952 Thu, 15 Oct 2009 13:13:39 +0000 StirlingCrispin 763952@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>[quote]at least Van Nicolas offer you a lifetime warranty. It doesn&#39;t seem to be something many other Ti frames come with.</blockquote></p> <p>Lifetime until they change their name again.</p> <p>PS: I&#39;m bopping around on a steel frame now. </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker/page/2#post-763949 Thu, 15 Oct 2009 13:12:48 +0000 Gee76 763949@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Are they defo the lynskey versions.. can&#39;t get to hotmail to check the mailshot!!!.</p> <p>What is the finish like??? </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker/page/2#post-763941 Thu, 15 Oct 2009 13:11:34 +0000 Gee76 763941@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Subtle!!! :o) </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker/page/2#post-763928 Thu, 15 Oct 2009 13:09:06 +0000 brant 763928@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>Would I buy a Lynskey made frame as a result? Probably not now.</blockquote></p> <p>What if they were £799? </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker/page/2#post-763827 Thu, 15 Oct 2009 12:49:07 +0000 fasthaggis 763827@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Avdave</p> <p>I have had a Ti hardtail frame for the last few years that I have really liked ,but it didn&#39;t have any disc mount points on it.<br /> I was thinking about getting some welded on,but then started looking around at new frames instead.<br /> I had been going to get a Voodoo D-jab ,but halfords fecked it up ,so I went for the Tuareg instead. Looking forward to getting it built up. </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker/page/2#post-763711 Thu, 15 Oct 2009 12:22:32 +0000 avdave2 763711@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>fasthaggis at least Van Nicolas offer you a lifetime warranty. It doesn&#39;t seem to be something many other Ti frames come with. I rather like the look of the Zion Rohloff with the belt drive. Quite easy to build it up under 25lbs as well. </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker/page/2#post-763396 Thu, 15 Oct 2009 11:20:03 +0000 fasthaggis 763396@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Just bought a Van Nic Tuareg ,am I heading for a world of plate dropout nightmares ? :~( <a href="http://tinyurl.com/yh2rxqv" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/yh2rxqv</a> </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker/page/2#post-761935 Wed, 14 Oct 2009 20:44:18 +0000 nicko74 761935@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Shenanigans - that&#39;s a Cotic Soda dropout! <img src="http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/my-plugins/bb-smilies/default/icon_wink.gif" title=";)" class="bb_smilies" alt=""/> </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker#post-761916 Wed, 14 Oct 2009 20:40:09 +0000 ti_pin_man 761916@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>sanny, which ti ibis do you have ? I assume one of the older tiMojo&#39;s? </p> <p>cheers<br /> joe </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker#post-761802 Wed, 14 Oct 2009 20:12:02 +0000 Freezie 761802@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Drop-out on the new Lynskey built Hummer</p> <p><img src="http://www.canadian-dirt.com/products/hummer/4.jpg"> </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker#post-761791 Wed, 14 Oct 2009 20:09:42 +0000 Zone 761791@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><strong>thisisnotaspoon</strong> , Not me I hope.. harping on <img src="http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/my-plugins/bb-smilies/default/icon_wink.gif" title=":wink:" class="bb_smilies" alt=""/> just proud of what we achieved... </p> <p>Ours where drawn, tapered,ovalised, variable wall thickness (internally and externally) to exacting design for riding characteristics needed.And it works! I&#39;d do the pepsi/coke challenge blank frame test no problem.</p> <p>This thing has that spring but also has that stomp and fire acceleration of alloy... but absorbs trail buzz like an anaesthetic, but feeds trail changes fantastic.. we really did try to tick all the boxes.... The variable butting reduces weight with no stress concentration points... this added to an mpa rating at about the same as reynolds 753 due to the rolls royce milspec finish.. and viola!</p> <p>We went for the plate drop outs cos they are the best thing for the job.... <img src="http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/my-plugins/bb-smilies/default/icon_biggrin.gif" title=":D" class="bb_smilies" alt=""/> </p> <p>We are trying at this time to produce them again!</p> <p>Zone </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker#post-761229 Wed, 14 Oct 2009 17:06:56 +0000 Gruenermoench 761229@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Did that 456 get warranteed? Usually things break at the weakest point which suggests that the welding possibly wasn&#39;t upto scratch, that the area where the stays join the dropouts was too small or both. I have never heard of breezer style dropouts goin like that.</p> <p>Is the 456 Lynskey or Taiwanese made?</p> <p><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3168/2936268718_06632c841b_b.jpg"> </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker#post-760479 Wed, 14 Oct 2009 12:58:00 +0000 james-o 760479@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>hehe maybe )</p> <p>i think the ability to perceive and isolate differences is learnt and in part comes from experience but has little to do with riding ability, assuming you&#39;re able to ride at a competent level on technical stuff. understanding things from a design pov first helps too. </p> <p>some ti bikes ride like some other peoples steel bikes, yes, but i reckon the charge bikes in that test would show quite different results on a test bench. but it&#39;s like £1500 bikes and £2500 bikes - diminishing returns. light weight plus a durable finish sells ti as much as perceived ride feel, as does the lust factor - any bike that makes you feel like riding more often is a good thing, and i&#39;d say whatever it takes to give you that feeling is more worth spending cash on that a new car )</p> <p>my ti genesis is a noticably but subtly different ride to the 853, same angles but i use them in different ways with set-ups that suit the differences. </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker#post-760420 Wed, 14 Oct 2009 12:44:02 +0000 thisisnotaspoon 760420@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>yes, but im going to stick my neck out that they picked significantly above average riders, probably racers, probably a handfull of pro&#39;s even.</p> <p>The fact they didn&#39;t get an overwhelming conclusion in favour of Ti kinda hints that maybe its not all its cracked up to be.</p> <p>Or it could just be that STW&#39;ers are princess and pea types and dirt readers are neaderthals dragging arround rusty lumps of iron. </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker#post-760368 Wed, 14 Oct 2009 12:32:42 +0000 james-o 760368@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>&quot;Just re-read the dirt article where they painted up a charge ti-duster and leant it to riders to compare against a regular steel one. The only visual difference (apart from tube profiles) was one has a QR seatclamp and one had a bolt up. The riders were told the frames were different, but were given different informtion each time.</p> <p>The riders seemed to find whatever difference they were told was there. One or the other was more springy/harsh, one had steeper angles, etc etc etc. so you could conclude that what seatclamp you have has more of an impact than what your frames made from.&quot;</p> <p>--- or you could conclude that some people are not good bike testers and some are; knowing what to look for and how to test for it is different to just being given a bike and asked for a comment. ie some riders are &#39;princess and the pea&#39; type, some just get on and ride anything quite happily. it&#39;s the same thing that means a world cup racer is not necessarily going to make a great bike designer. ti and steel are very different materials to work with and you can get different results. i can&#39;t imagine the steel and ti charge do ride the same in reality, but you&#39;re right to say that some won&#39;t appreicate any significant differences. </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker#post-760261 Wed, 14 Oct 2009 12:01:44 +0000 Sanny 760261@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>cynic-al</p> <p>No the point still stands about any manufacturer that uses the plate style dropouts. It&#39;s not just Lynskey who use that style but it&#39;s their frame that I saw break which prompted my question of whether plate style dropouts are more prone to failure than other designs. There appears to be a fairly recent proliferation of this style of dropout for Ti frames across several manufacturers which would make me ask whether they help increase margin but aren&#39;t necessarily a design improvement?</p> <p>Cheers</p> <p>Sanny </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker#post-760197 Wed, 14 Oct 2009 11:41:47 +0000 mick_r 760197@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Hey Zone - font of all welded Raleigh knowledge! I know of 3 people with the Raleigh frame(it was Timet tubing - I had a leaflet from an aerospace show). The dropouts might be bomb proof, but they all cracked in weird places. </p> <p>2 cracked at the rear seatstay wishbone, both ridden by female racers weighing max 60 kg.</p> <p>1 (actually an X Lite but pretty sure it was the same frame rebadged with a matt finish) cracked right around the down tube but maybe 2 - 3 inches behind the down tube / head tube weld. </p> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ti-frames-why-the-fashion-for-plate-dropouts-are-they-not-weaker#post-760017 Wed, 14 Oct 2009 10:50:44 +0000 kelvin 760017@http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>My understanding is that the new Soda is very much a Cotic/Merlin collaboration, hence Merlin taking the lead on some things. Dropouts are theirs, as is the chainstay bridge instead of chainstay gussets. Certain things have to be done &quot;their&quot; time tested way if they&#39;re going to back up the build with their mad warranty terms. What Cotic bring to the party is the design of the custom tubing, and, of course, the handling. </p>