[Closed] Advice - Should we let our 2 year old get the Swine Flu vacine?

Why wouldn't you?

It's a personal thing, we didn't.

Why?

Well there's a huge drop in the number of cases and I reckon both my kids had it in October. Guess what it didn't kill them.

Why is a huge drop in the number of cases a reason not to vaccinate?

We had it done, hunting around didn't throw up any reasons against.

[i]Why is a huge drop in the number of cases a reason not to vaccinate?[/i]

Even less likely to catch it now.

But what's the downside. It's not like they're using the active virus in the vaccine so there's just no reason to not have at-risk groups vaccinated.

Your right there is no real risk involved with it, some argue other wise, but it's also not essential they have it. Yes there's risks involved with Flu but both my kids are very strong and healthy with no health issues, so we chose not to bother with it. Flu can kill but it also just make you feel unwell for a week or 2.

It's your kid, you decide simple as that.

We chose not to have it for our 41/2 year old as she is very healthy and attends a school free (as far as we know) from the swine flu. Why put her through it as 'if' she contracts it, she'll have the tamiflu tablets anyway.

I would never take Tamiflu or give my kids Tamiflu, it has many side effects and only reduces the effect of Flu by a few days not get rid of it.

You guys are aware that the "my child has a healthy immune system so doesn't need it" argument is the same argument that gets used by Anti Vaccination groups who think that all vaccines are part of some sort of evil government conspiracy? You only have to look at the comments that are made about the measles vaccine where people use the same logic that you guys are using to defend not giving their children that vaccination with the result that a disease that we should have beaten long ago in the UK is on the rise again.

Vaccination isn't just about protecting the person who gets the jab, it's about protecting the rest of society as a whole. There is no reason not to take the vaccine. The simple fact is, that influenza kills and not just those with underlying symptoms.

[url= http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/10/27/frustraglio-h1n1-toronto-hockey113.html ]Like this child.[/url]

So the wife asked if I would open it up to the STW masses to see if there is any advice/opinions that would help us in reaching a decision.

Fantastic!

Gonefishin, there's a big difference between the reason for MMR jab and flu jab. The logic I use is not based on speculation it's based on the knowledge of my kids and my experience of dealing with suspected flu/swine flu cases.

Well done you found a case where a well child of it but there's been millions that haven't.

All vaccinations indeed all medical interventions have some risk attached. This is normally higher in the young ( as are the risks of complications from illness as well)

So you need a risk / benefit analysis to know for sure. What is the benefit? What are the relative risks of having it and not having it? Is the child at high risk of complications if they catch the disease?

"First do no harm"

Gonefishin, there's a big difference between the reason for MMR jab and flu jab

Is there really a difference? The purpose of a vaccine, as I understand, is to limit the spread of a viral infection, although I'm happy to be corrected on that point. Now I was careful not to compare influenza to measles (or MMR for that matter) as it was the similarities in the reasoning that I wanted to demonstrate. I was not trying to compare the diseases.

The logic I use is not based on speculation it's based on the knowledge of my kids and my experience of dealing with suspected flu/swine flu cases.

Now i know you are a paramedic and therefore have far greater medical knowledge than I do, however the argument that "I know my kids" is one that is used over and over and it fundamentally flawed. The simple fact is that even with a healthy immune system there is no guarantee that an infection like the flu won't be very damaging and potentially. Granted and compromised immune system will increase this likelihood but a healthy one doesn't eliminate it.

Well done you found a case where a well child of it but there's been millions that haven't.

Yes you are correct and I did think hard about whether to post and anecdote or not and I'm sure you are correct that there are millions who have been infected and survived just fine. The same however can be said for just about every other vaccine preventable disease. I'm also pretty sure that this was the case where after this lads death there was a massive increase in the vaccination rate a suddenly people realised that even an "otherwise healthy child" had died.

TJ as far as I've been able to find out, the potential consequences of the 'flu jab is a sore arm and the main benefit is a huge reduction in the risk of contracting a potentially fatal disease. That to me a no brainer.

"First do no harm" doesn't mean that your default position is doing nothing. There are risks involved in intervention, however that doesn't mean that there is no risk involved in [i]not[/i] intervening.

Gonefishin - I gave no answers but those are some of the questions. "First do no harm" indeed does mean the default position is to do nothing - a basic principle of medicine. You have to be sure that whatever intervention you do will improve outcomes.

All vaccinations will have side effects including this one - and we may not know about them all yet. medical knowledge is not perfect. Has it been tested on toddlers? No. How high is the relative risk?

In this particular case you have to weigh the probable minor side effects and the rare serious side effects against the low chance of getting swine flu and the low risk of complications from the swine flu should the child be infected.

Thats the only sensible basis for making the decision

I have been a big cynic of the whole media frenzy around Swine Flu since it began in the Summer. But having suffered from Man Flu in the past, I have been in the unfortunate position for the past week of having been clinically diagnosed with 'proper' Swine Flu. A thoroughly miserable and painful experience I can tell you. I wouldn't wish it on James Martin (well, maybe I would actually!). If I had the opportunity to avoid having gone through this, I would have done, but I understand your nervousness given a 2 year old. It really is a cut above 'normal' flu, but the Tamiflu is not much fun either, with extreme vommiting as one of the many unpleasant side effects. If the vaccine is anything like that, I would probably take the risk and not have it. Evidently the outbreak has not been as widespread as 'they' originally feared, but just keep your fingers crossed that she doesn't get it as it really is horrible. The doctor was happy to prescribe a lesser dose of Tamiflu to my other half as a preventative, but even he said that the side effects probably outweighed the risk of getting it, even from prolonged and close contact with me.

it was the similarities in the reasoning that I wanted to demonstrate. I was not trying to compare the diseases.

A risk/benefit analysis requires that you do exactly that because the risks are different for different diseases. The benefit of maintaining herd immunity to a relatively low risk disease can't be equated to maintaining it for a higher risk disease.

[i]Is there really a difference? The purpose of a vaccine, as I understand, is to limit the spread of a viral infection,[/i]

It is but the differnce between Measels at al is whole world of difference, whilst essentially it's to try and stop the spread MMR is jab is for 3 very nasty diseases.

Flu kill 1,000s in this country every year kids and adults but this is the first time they've offered the jab to kids even though the cases have fallen massively and are 1,000 miles short of what they were predicting.

[i]however the argument that "I know my kids" is one that is used over and over and it fundamentally flawed.[/i]

No it's not. One of the questions asked when assesing anyone not just kids is how are they compared to normal, have they been like this before and does it seem like their normal illness. It's an assesment tool not a flaw.

wont be doing ours.
i had these words casualy uttered to me at on time...it could hav been a childhood jab that caused your epilepsy.

what do you reckon on that drac?

[i]what do you reckon on that drac? [/i]

It would involve more than speculation and would have to rule out every other reason for it too. Epilepsy is caused by many things, while it's always possible there's too many other things that cause it.

cheers.
it was said years ago by my GP and its kind of played on my mind ever since.
supose its daft to jump on that whilst moaning look what you did to me you bast88ds 😆

the OP should be talking to medical professionals not people on an OT mtb discussion board regarding his 2 yo

you then weigh it up and make a decision

why?
he just wants as much opinion as he can get.

As I understand it these flu vaccines are not a public health policy in the same way MMR is. These letters are part of a targeted invitational programme to immunise those at greatest risk, not reduce infection rates to sub-epidemic levels.

the control of mumps, measels and rubella has wider public health benefits than flu control and relies upon minimum levels of takeup in the entire population.

Personally im indifferent to flu jabs as fatality rates are relatively low and even then and have high correlation with identified high risk groups. I may well let my 3 year old get the jab because he occasionally suffers from fluid on his lungs and flu might aggravate his chronic condition.

but the Tamiflu is not much fun either, with extreme vommiting as one of the many unpleasant side effects. If the vaccine is anything like that, I would probably take the risk and not have it.

I have 4 kids aged 7, 6, 3 and 2. All of them are Norwegian citizens (so is there mum). When we got advised that only the youngest two would be vaccinated, we investigated what was happening in Norway. In the UK, the 'at-risk' groups are vaccinated, in Norway, everyone is vaccinated. So, when we were over at Christmas we had all 4 vaccinated, plus there mum and the Doctor kindly vaccinated me as well for £15.

Norway's health system is miles ahead of the UK. If every Norwegian is getting a jag, I'd say it's ok.

Hope this helps.

[i]If every Norwegian is getting a jag, I'd say it's ok.[/i]

If they were to give me a Jag too and take it.

We had our 3 & 1 year olds vaccinated we believed doing the best for our children, our choice I suppose.

SV - absolutely - making [i]informed[/i] choices is the key. It is not as clear cut as some would think and there is no one right answer.

As SV says - personal choice. My gf is heavily pregnant- its not even on the agenda for us nor will it ever be.

As I understand it these flu vaccines are not a public health policy in the same way MMR is. These letters are part of a targeted invitational programme to immunise those at greatest risk, not reduce infection rates to sub-epidemic levels.

Yeah, unless you're working in a hospital/school etc. it's to stop people who if they had it would be at risk of dying / having their health damaged in the long term, hence it being given to old people, kids, and pregnant women. So basically it's your choice as to whether you want to remove the risk from your kids.

As far as the 'suspected cases of swine flu', it does seem that everyone who had a bit of flu in the last year has been told that it could possibly have been swine flu.

Joe

not particularly pro vaccination - think the multiple vaccines at early age are a bit aggressive - we had our kids vaccinated when older than the health authorities would prefer, am of the opinion that the general uk child vaccination program is pretty focussed on the "greater good" with an acceptance that there maybe a very low chance of some problems with a very small number of kids

having said that youngest (7) is immune suppressed and had the swine flu vaccine early on - based on 2 things - 1 being that the high temperature and vomitting would screw up her normal medication - the other being the tendency for children to get chest complications and if the swine flu had continued to spread at the sort of initial rate we saw then i'm pretty certain not enough hospital facilities to cope with rafts of kids with chest complications which seem pretty common in kids

both ours reacted to the vaccine with a short burst of moaning and groaning with headache and slightly elevated temp 24hrs after injections
edit but no real cause for any concern

How many people have been killed by the vacine? None as far as I know.

How many people have been killed by the virus? Lots as with seasonal flu.

How many perfectly healthy young people have been killed by the virus? More than for normal flu.

A 24-year-old sportman with no health problems died locally recently. Flu viruses often get a second wind so I'll predict a rise in the next few weeks..

In at least one of the previous pandemics, a healthy immune system [b][u]caused[/b][/u] a lot of the deaths, particularly in young men. Massive immune response overwhelmed the body, fatally in a lot of cases. Food for thought 🙁

We have just been invited to get our 2 year old done. Not sure whether too, thing that bother me is the speed with which they created a vaccine, I would have though that normally the testing of a new drug would take years not months? How much was this one rushed just to hush the media?

stupot - the annual vaccine is made in the same way every year.

[i]Flu viruses often get a second wind so I'll predict a rise in the next few weeks.. [/i]

Another second wind for swine flu, that'll be at least it's third now. I'll wonder what they'll do this time to boost the figures, first it was switching from blood tests to over the phone, then it was anyone with Flu symptoms has swine flu not seasonal. Will it be anyone who sneezes has swine flu and will probably die.

I would let your 2 year old have the vacine as a precaution if nothing else, my 9 year old had it without complications, although he was supposed to have a secondary booster but they changed that policy. If your child does get swine flu and you didnt get the vaccine you would probably kick yourself. Same sort of argument for the MMR jab, how mant children are at risk or are indeed contracting measle as a result of parents listening to scarmongers due to some idiot scientist or doctor linking it to Autism.

Better safe than sorry.

Ooops!

am of the opinion that the general uk child vaccination program is pretty focussed on the "greater good" with an acceptance that there maybe a very low chance of some problems with a very small number of kids

having said that youngest (7) is immune suppressed

It's still around, although thankfully not at the worst predicted levels. Seeing a 20 odd year old lady with sats of 70 on 100% O2 two days after giving birth makes me less dismissive of the danger...

how mant children are at risk or are indeed contracting measle as a result of parents listening to scarmongers due to some idiot scientist or doctor linking it to Autism.

I'd listen to all the pros and cons but also- if a Doctor or Scientist disagrees with something then I'll also listen to what they have to say.

[i]Seeing a 20 odd year old lady with sats of 70 on 100% O2 two days after giving birth makes me less dismissive of the danger.[/i]

There is a danger and very much people like her but it's far from the danger that they predicted and the press jumped on.

[i]There is a danger and very much people like her but it's far from the danger that they predicted and the press jumped on. [/i]

Yup, I agree.

We've got tons of very expensive stuff sitting around doing nothing, and I wonder what will happen to it; I know we've got enough critical care stuff to double our capacity, which represents an awful lot of money tied up in equipment.

i think that, although swine flu does exist, it's fed into the media and blown up into a massive frenzy in order to 1) sell newspapers and 2) boost the profits of the vaccine manufacturers by having the population shitting themselves about it.

also, have the vaccines been properly tested?

we need a good population decimator. far too many of us here as it is. flus are natures way of keeping our population levels in check.