Ive requested a new domestic electricity connection (12kW, single phase).

There's an existing 15kVA transformer on a pole on the land that is already serving at least 5 other domestic properties.

Ive been told that my connection (which takes it to 6 properties) will necessitate the replacement of the 15KVA transformer with a new 50KVA one and that I will have to pay what I calculate to be 33% of the capital cost (About £3.5k).

EON in their works offer letter havent specified how they get to the 67:33 split of contribution to capital costs, I shall call them monday to find out.

Surely, though, the incremental load increase of connecting my property is irrelevant, given that the 15kVA transformer must already be underspec'd by a significant factor. Why am I paying 1/3 of the upgrade cost, when really I should pay my proportion of the increased load over and above what SHOULD already be supplied, not what is being under-supplied right now? No?

So by my calcs, if a max supply per household is 12kW (lets say power factor = 1) and call it max 12kVA per household. Then 5 existing households should be supplied with 5×12 less redundancy, of say, 33%? giving 40kVA. Shouldn't I pay for the incremental power from 40kVA to 50kVA, not 15kVA to 50kVA? And since there ought to be a minimum of a 40kVA transformer installed already (and in fact the next size up would already have been a 50kVA), then surely I shouldn't be funding the shortfall in the existing infrastructure?

bump for those at work slacking…

contact iran and get em to sell you a small nuclear reactor then you can power you development AND flog lecky back to Eon, they may also be an 'underground' market for your waste! just dont ask any questions.

quids in!

I was toying with going "off grid", but your suggestion takes it to new levels. Just as well I have Imadinnerjacket's number on speedial…

Tell them you'll do it yourself. Screwfix are doing 50kVA trannies on special till end January. Polish electrician, well insulated stepladder and bob's your…. 😀

Actually to be fair, sounds like they want to take you for a ride for an over-the-top upgrade. Is there a reason why it needs a sudden jump from 15 to 50?

Stoner

I work for Central Networks (E.On)
I don't work for the new connections part of the business anymore but used to when I worked in the Stoke office. I used to Plan and look after the constuction of schemes similar to the one you have described.

Back then we used to have the same policy. If you require a supply and the existing infrastucture is not upto ytaking the supply then the customer has to pay part of the cost to upgrade the asset to meet the new demand requirements.

The reason why you have been quoted for a 50kVA TX is that it is the closest transformer we used to take into account the new total demand.

What region are you in?? Don't think I can let you know actual costs of our equipment and labour costs, but I can let you know if the quote is about right

There you have it Stoner, it's company policy to fleece the customer so you're not being singled out 🙂

The existing trannie is very underrated for the current loads. with 5 houses demanding c.12kW already, the box ought to be rated at close to 40kVA anyway – even before me and my hydroponic dope factory plug in.

The costs I think seem about right – theyve given me loads of breakdown:

£3.7k for labour to fix the box, box itself costs £4k
Theres another £1.5k of HV overhead work too.
Im in Central Networks grasp.

Its more the subsidising of what is already clearly underspecced that gets me. I dont mind paying for my portion of the uprating, but not 30 years worth.

it seems to me that you want to benefit from the infrastructure being nearby, but object to paying a third of the cost of uprating an asset that must be working fine without you

If I was an Eon customer I'd object to subsidising the 66% when the network works fine without you

😉

12kVA supply to a domestic property is fair enough (more for some people), but the real issue is what's the "after diversity maximum demand".

For large ground mounted substations and decent sized housing devlopments you might reckon on 1-2kVA – more if the heating is electric. So in other words 250 houses all of which might pull 10-20kVA (20 would be high)off a 500kVA transformer

For small transformers the diversity is probably lower and therefore the ADMD higher.

My guess is 15kVA might well be fine for 5 properties because they don't all take it at the same time.

You will have been charged on 100% of the connection from the pole Tx to your intake point plus 12/50 times the cost of the cost of the pole Tx replacement. At least you should have been – give or take.

Getting the price down
1. Ask them if it was over loaded now and did they check? The rules still apply but they might not be so aggressive about applying them.
2. Ask for a domestic supply based on an ADMD figure – not 12kVA. Unless that is your ADMD – but it would be pretty high.
3. Don't ask this week. The DNOs just got their 5 year settlement figures from Ofgem yesterday and they may or may not be in the best of moods.
4. Competition in connections probably won't help as you're to small – but why not check it out.

What I would recommend though is basically ring up and ask to speak to a designer – preferably a design engineer. They had a section 9 Electricity Act obligation to develop the system in an economical, efficient and co-ordinated way. You don't understand ADMD and they do – ask for their help in understanding what ADMD is.

And by the way please disregard everything I said as I run the section that has the designers in it for YEDL and NEDL's area – therefore as a matter of covering myself I have to say advice is probably worth what you pay for it.

If I was an Eon customer I'd object to subsidising the 66% when the network works fine without you

If you were an EON customer, Id sneak round your place and nick your electrics.
😉

igm – cheers, that's all very useful stuff.
I have the name of the connection designer and she's back at her desk tomorrow so will call her. I understand ADMD in its basic form, but obviously dont have the figures of redundancy/diversity that EON would work to for the design. My ADMD should be very low – I have no electrical heating, all lighting is going to be low power and just an electric oven. Even if I request a connection based on a lower supply, they're still going to need to stick a bigger box on surely?

I think id seen the 12/50 thing before. Why is it that number? Is it statutory or negotiable?

12/50 = 12kVA/50kVA = your take divided by the new network capacity
Also known as the apportionment rule – basically non-negotiable / set by the regulator as being fair to both existing and new customers.

However even if they need a new Tx I'd rather pay for an ADMD of 2 than 12 – 2/50 not 12/50.

By the way my guess is an ADMD of 2 would eat that load – probably (don't come back if it doesn't)

Digging your own trench might help get the cost down too – but it would have to meet their spec (which should be on their website under their G81 information)

the works element to get the LV to my door is tiny as the next pole along is within 5' of the entry point. I shall install the conduit under the footing and they just need to drop the tail down the pole, dig a couple of feet of trench and theyre in. Piece of piss for them 🙂

thanks for the note on the ADMD ratio. I might just try that as it will be a relatively low demand house – some Underfloorheating pumps and a range cooker pretty much most of the demand.

cheers again, igm. Very grateful for the help.

Underfloorheating pumps

Can I just check that doesn't mean "heat pump" – 'cos that adds 4kVA or so to your ADMD straight off.

no – ive not gone for any heat pumps because the efficiency doesnt stack up.
Im using a thermal store on a wood pellet boiler and solar collector.

£168k buys a helluva a lot of propane Peggy

EDIT: now my post looks a little odd djg 😉

Im using a thermal store on a wood pellet boiler and solar collector

Nice choices there. Solar electric will make sense with the subsidies next year too. (google Feed In Tariff)

Im not sold on solar electric yet – capital cost per kWh is still too high even with shorter payback of feed in.

Im hoping I can get a feed-in meter installed though so that Im ready for it – wind is an option on the site as well as solar. But im not counting my chickens – Im not sure Southern electric (or whoever I plump for) will offer a feed in meter without a connection.

I also have to keep any feed-in below 4kW I gather.

Google G83

Basically it's 16A per phase which at about 250V* is 4kW on single phase. And that's what I ask people to stick to – but other DNOs may allow more.

Drop me an email with a phone number if you want to chat any of this through – I won't see the email until tomorrow though

*your actual voltage may be higher than this if you're exporting.

cheers igm.
Ill drop you a line if I need to gen up a bit after my call with Miss EON Designer tomorrow.

Stoner

IMG is spot on with everything he has said.
To be honest if all the heating is gas then a 15kVA TX will prob take another connection at a push.

Also – ask the designer if Central Networks are still installing 25kV 1ph TX's. When I was doing design and build work in Stoke, we used to use these. With gas heating you would easily get 8 properties fed from one of these. FAiling that ask what the cost of a refurbished 50kVA unit would cost.

Another question to ask is are there any reinforcment schemes planned in the area. If work is due to take place we have often only charged for the connection – ie overhead reconductoring in the area

One more trick would be to ask the neighours if they have experience any flickering lights – this would indicate that the TX is overloaded and CN would be obliged to uprate the TX to provide as suitable supply to exisitng customer under the ESCQ regs

If you are still having probs drop another post – I have a copy of the current network design manual on my laptop and could see if the designer is actually designing a minimum cost scheme to meet your requirements

Tom – those are all excellent pointers, thank you.

Cheers for all the help guys. Nice to get genned up on the way in.
Will report back…

you guys are legends. Cheers. Just had the call with the quoter (not the designer) and I really sounded like a knew what I was babbling about 🙂 . She's now going to go off and clarify all the points you guys raised – esp the potential for an ADMD figure based supply given that the house is going to run a wood pellet boiler etc which they hadnt factored in (although there may of course be no benefit and they may still insist on 12kva for apportionment regardless of heating tech). Will hear back from her later.

Sheet, I was going to enjoy watching you being fleeced 😛

oh, I'll still get fleeced probably, but I wont go down without a fight!
😉

Anyway, it's what the contingency fund is for 😉

Anyway, it's what the contingency fund is for

No, that's for bikes!

hmmm. Bikes would be nice, but Mrs S has it pencilled in for water jets in the bath. I offered to fart instead but…..

Incidentally, are you at a point of speccing out the wood to go over your UFH yet?

not yet – wont be laying it until late summer next year.

You do that stuff dont you?
Probably going for engineered oak laminate I think – thats for about 60sqm and a synthetic surface like Amtico on the other 75sqm.

Indeed I do know someone who does that stuff yes 😉 It gets interesting when it comes to UFH and wood – but think engineered and don't ever think solid (no matter what any company says about this re-kilning bollocks).

Even if you're planning to lay it yourself, let me know, I can point you in the direction of some decent suppliers.

cheers K. Will bear you in mind.

Hoping my local floor supplier can do a good price – he carpeted our last house and he has offered my mate (builder who's helping me on the project) a cost+ deal which hopefully I can jump on the back of. We'll see…

Ah well. It was a good shot, but nice Miss EON designer, she say "no". Needs to be a 50kVA box now with the extra connection and my apportionment has to be 12 over 50.

🙁

Thanks for all the help. At least I can be content that Ive tried and I'm pretty sure Im not getting completely shafted.

*goes of to write whopping big cheque*

Stoner

What area are you in? What is the designers name?
Can't do much about it now as the company has 2 central design teams – on at Tipton and one nr Donnington.

When we used to do design and build at local office level we could have sorted something out for you.

Next prob you'll have is speed of connection – we were working at connection 8-12 weeks after payment (check your terms and conditions letter) Hopefully it will be quicker now. Any more probs let me know, I don't really know anyone in the east mids are but do know a few people in the west mids

I'm not, as I have admitted on here before, really an LV man – much happier from 33kV upwards – but basically they are in the wrong here – there is no way you will ever take 24% of the MD of that Tx which already has 5 other properties on it. On a 50kVA transformer they will be able to sell that 12kVA MD at least 10 times I would have thought.

So don't give up yet – you have received brush off number one. Keep going and expect a few more brush offs.

Also I'm not convinced that can assign you an ADMD of 12 – ask them how they came to the 12kW conclusion, ask them what ADMD they have assigned to the other properties and if it's not 12 ask why. If it is ask if they can add up.

Ask if another customer comes along whether they intend to refund you under the second comer rule (by law they have to but it causes much difficulty to do so – only lasts for 5 years though)

How pressed for time are you? 'Cos if you complaint and keep complaining via the escalation process they are likely to cave in at some point. But it takes time.
You may be able to complain retrospectively.

Another tack is to reject the quote and open a completely new application. People do that every day all the way up to 700MW generators in my experience.

Whatever you do though time and inconvenience is money. The more of one you put in and cause them the less of the other you will have to send them.

IGM

The higher the voltage the better IMHO. I'm currently working on 33kV to 132kV networks.

Stoner

We have a similar probs at Higher voltage levels. One uni in Birmingham is putting in an Embedded network including generation. Our only option is to install a new 132/11kV TX (a fair few quid!!) and alot of cable work as thier proposals will push up the fault levels on our network

We are in discussion as to who is liable to pay for what – I'm just waiting for the construction job to land on my desk! (New grid TX to be installed in an undergound sub!! Lovely!) 😯

igm – YGM

Sounds like you have a big box that buzzes there 😉

I'm surprised you need 12kW, I've got a meter that cuts off at 6kW and has never tripped. Just don't turn everything on at the same time. £3.5k is some way to paying for a windmill or some photovoltaïque panels that would make you a net producer rather than consumer.

windmills and pv are all fine but still need connection to the grid for redundancy and to sell my juice to the Elec company.

Update: well, with the fantastic help of Tom and especially IGM for his time on the phone with me, central networks have responded to my latest letter by reissuing their estimate and agreeing to cover all the cost of the reinforcement works. Saving me about £2,200! Jacuzzi time!

How great is the STW forum! 😉

(PS Tom, if you read this, can you PM me)