agghhh. I’ve got this mate who until about a year ago was perfectly rational.

Well now she’s not, she joined a evangelical baptist church who are creationists (young earth i think) Now i have no issues with this but when questioned over her beliefs she often answers ‘I’m not sure – we haven’t discussed it yet”

she seems to be giving up everything she believed before and taking blindly whatever the church tell her to believe. and don’t start me on her attitude to her bisexual best friend: absolutely unbelievable!

Last night when questioned on if she really believed dinosaurs where thousands of years old rather than millions – she shouted at me burst into tears and made me out to be some kind of **** to all our mates.

what annoys me is i can’t ask what she believes in without being accused of being an intellectual bully! well forgive me for being well read on matters of science and religion!

what can be done with people like this!

Have a couple of mates who are similar. One left the church as it were but still struggles to shake off the rubbish he was bought up on, try explaining that the world is more than just 10,000 years old meets a blank look and questions on how we really can prove it…

If they are receptive to it as he is and you have lots of patience you can get there but its at best frustrating but does lead you to question certain asumptions that are in the main stream at the moment. Look up the Aquatic Ape theory for example – lots of good reasoning behind it but it is laughed at by mainstream science.

Questioning theories and chucking out what does not fit and replacing with something better is what science is all about, if your friend could conclusively prove that the world is only 7,000 years old by finding human fossils in the same strata as dinosaur fossils then maybe we would start listening to them 😉

Not your fault she is stoopid.

I had the God Botherers knocking on my door the other day, they asked if I’d considered seeking help/solace/advice in the Holy Scripture at “this difficult time”. I told him that, being unemployed, my reading at the moment consisted of job pages in New Scientist (emphasis on the Scientist bit) but they took that as a challenge, the guy said something about looking forward to a discussion of our respective points of view. Eventually they left. First time they’ve called in this area but we used to get the Jehovah’s calling round all the bloody time at my Mum’s house.

As to what can be done about it, no idea. Try broadening her social horizons, get her away from their influence?

get rid mate, no point hanging round with people who make you both look and feel like a ****

Why could God have not created dinosaurs?

Seroiusly- i did an archaeology degree and the complete opposite happend to the religoius students.
we even had a nun give up nunning because she saw through religion.
Its all about influence i guess.

Anyway – Dinosaurs are really called ‘jesus horses’

Why could God have not created dinosaurs?

he well could of and i couldn’t prove otherwise but and it’s a big but they were on earth 100’s of millions of years ago not thousands. and science can prove that.

get rid mate

easier said than done!

and don’t start me on her attitude to her bisexual best friend: absolutely unbelievable!

No go on, share it with STW…

thomthumb- more like 100 million not 100’s. the ‘big’ dieout was 65 million years ago.

we have older human burials than 7,000 BP in this country. How would god girl explain that?

Jesus on a dinosaur wow!

on the bi thing she thinks it’s a sin and will take him to hell, the thoughts are gods challenge and should not be acted upon, she also believes that it can be cured! bit rich coming from a repressed/ reformed lesbian!

How would god girl explain that?

she wouldn’t she’d say that she has god and I have science – if you try to discuss the difference between proof and belief it’s like banging your head on a brick wall!

I think Creationists are made out to be bonkers, by those who wish to promote ‘Science’ as the One True Way. Granted, some don’t do themselves any favours, and I feel theres a lot of confused people out there, but I don’t blindly follow Science, as I don’t blindly follow Religion. I want something to be proved to me, unequivocally.

Thing is, Science hazzunt actually proved that the World is X million years old, just presented hypotheses based on the findings of mere mortals. What if they’re fundamentally wrong?

I don’t fully accept Darwin’s therories, as many do. There’s a lot of evidence to show that his theories are a fair way of explaining things, but even they have holes. Man descended from apes? Where’s the actual proof? Sorry, but what’s often presented as ‘evidence’, is not too convincing, as far as I’m concerned.

Think of it like this:

Religion has an agenda, to present an idea of reality, that will bind people in some sort of group, which can then be managed through coercion and influence. And Religion seeks to keep control of it’s ‘followers’, who then provide the necessary resources, which perpetuates the Status Quo, and in many ways legitimises itself.

Science, it could be argued, also has an agenda. I mean, how much money is thrown into ‘Scientific Research’? Case in point; that big thingy in Switzerland, what din’t work propply. What, exactly, do they hope to be able to ‘prove’ with such an incredibly expensive venture?

And who instigates and commissions ‘Scientific Research’? Just look at the oil companies, who argue against the Green lobby, on matters of Global Warming etc, and produce their own ‘findings’, to back up their own claims.

And is it not possible, that Scientists could come up with the ‘answers’ their paymasters want them too?

And Space Research; let’s face it, apart from a few weather satellites, most of it seems to be a load of surveillance and telecommunication satellites, with a few pretty pictures of nebulae or whatever, thrown in now and then, to keep us in awe, what has it really given us? Velcro, non-stick pans and Lycra. And pens what can write upside-down.

No, I’m not having it. Science does not in any way have all the answers. There is a possiblity, that some Creationist theories might be right.

And it is also possible, that Human Beings may in fact be the descendants of an Alien race, here on Earth to look after all the other stuff.

Me? I’ll keep an open mind…

my mum is an otherwise intelligent person.

But until the mid 90s she was a member of the flat earth society, and even now is not entirely convinced.

She is adamant in her belief that the bible is absolute literal truth.

Dinosaurs – “test of our faith”

Darwinism – “wrong! wheres the missing link then eh?”

God allowing natural disasters, Hitler etc – See response to dinosaurs

FFS it drives me mad, you just cant win an argument with someone like that.

Roll on my mothers day visit….

“Creationist theories might be right”

Man descended from apes? Where’s the actual proof? Rudeboy its everywhere!!!!
and getting stronger by the season. 2008 found two more links in Olduvai.
I admit this is a subject that i have studied for 4 years but a small child could point out the morphilogical links from the apes to us.

Get her this for her birthday:

Rudeboy -That fact that you don’t know about it or clearly haven’t bothered to look – doesn’t mean that the evidence isn’t there.

Man descended from apes? Where’s the actual proof? Rudeboy its everywhere!!!!

No it’s not. All we have, are strong suggestions that we may have ‘evolved’ from apes. There is no concrete, solid, unquestionable PROOF.

I’m not saying that were aren’t, btw. I think it’s highly possible.

See, if we got a ruler, which is accepted by all, to be a way of measuring stuff, and we measure someone’s foot, for example, we KNOW it’s 10 inches or whatever. We can all see that it’s 10 inches. The system of measurement is accepted by all.

But what gets me, is when Scientists say ‘ooh, that star is X million miles from Earth, or ‘this rock is X million years old’.

They can’t prove it, as they don’t have a ruler that will stretch to the star, or any genuine way of knowing how old the rock really is. Just educated guesses.

And what if those who came up with ways of measuring far distances and the age of rocks, got their sums wrong in the first place, and no-one’s ever thought to question them?

See?

Blind acceptance is a sign, of stupid fools who stand in line.

doesn’t mean that the evidence isn’t there.

Where is it, then?

They’ve found stuff in the deepest oceans, and brought back pebbles from space.

They’ve never found the Missing Link.

I’ll wait until they do, before I ‘believe’.

I need no religion to know who I am or question life and purpose.

I respect peoples religion and opinions even if they are delusional.

Let them believe in what they want as they’re not open minded and scared of what they can’t comprehend.

J.witness at my door, I tell them I work with genes and they don’t argue for long.

Your friend is delusional & insecure. If you’re a good friend (as is she) then you’ll help each other out.

If you have a busy life-you’ll avoid her and make new friends.

No, I’m not having it. Science does not in any way have all the answers. There is a possibility, that some Creationist theories might be right.

Science may not have all the answers but your comfortable early 21st century lifestyle is built on scientific method i.e. postulating a hypothesis then trying to prove it by observation or experiment. So I think science has done pretty well up to now. Tell me one natural phenomenon that religion has successfully explained. If past performance is any guide to the future I’ll put my money on Darwin and science being right instead of a bunch of religious zealots trying to bend evidence to fit their religious beliefs.

Before poor thomthumb thread is ruined and turned into a slanging match, how about people try to answer his question? thom do all your mates with the exclusion of the person in question have normal beliefs i.e don’t give a shit about religion.

some good points there Rude boy

we ‘scientists’ yes my job.
have to make a plausable assumptions. EG if the rate that caesium repletes in an amount of time is constant then we can date rocks etc by the amount that we find left within the rock. so the assumption is that caesium depletes at a known rate is our scientific assumption. which can be incorrect.
Google ‘atomic clock’ for a simlar system of dating.
Magnetometry is simlar. all clays polarize to the magnetic north pole at the time of their formation or baking. as we ASSUME we know the position of magnetic north for the past few thousand years then we can simply match the angle of the magnetism in the clay to the pole postion therefore giving us a date.
Geodating is very very accurate and passes all known tests and theories.
Carbon 14 dating that the public think is good is actually very unrelable.

I must admit that looking at different systems in the body they seem complex, have feedback systems and organised.

Could be an experiment?

Yep we’re food for the big aliens coming back to eat us all like they did with dinosaurs…ahgh!

Rude boy said They’ve never found the Missing Link.
they have its just that there is more than one…
do some research!!!

I would accept an “educated guess” based on a theory consistant with all observations (say, the decay of carbon 14 atoms, or red shift, something that fits the bill) to be more likly closer to the truth than religion. Evolution is a little trickier, but theres a lot behind knowing the age of something, or the distance to something, which is, to the people who understand how to do it, as simple as reading a measurement from a ruler.

So I think science has done pretty well up to now.

So do I.

But it does not in any way have ALL the answers.

My experience of people who join religious groups that are quite controlling, is that they have something missing in their lives; unexplained questions, and a disillusionment with Life as they have known up until that point.

I’d suggest that this is what tomthumb’s friend is going through. Maybe she is in desperate need of support; be it emotional, spiritual, whatever. Maybe she feels unloved, alienated, outcast. Quite a lot of ‘modern’ religious organisations seem to want to capitalise on a person’s inner turmoil and confusion. They offer the things that the person seeks, as long as that person adheres to the ‘rules’.

Does that make any sense?

The best thing tomthumb can do, imo, is to be as good a friend as possible. Maybe take her out, just the two of you, and just chat about stuff. Take her to a place she loves, or to do something she really enjoys; art, music, etc. Basically, let her have someone she can truly trust, regardless. Someone she knows will always be there for her.

Challenging her ‘beliefs’, in what may fro her be a threatening and oppressive manner, in an environment she is not comfortable with, will not help her.

Maybe she is confused, brainwashed, whatever. I can’t comment, as I don’t know the whole story.

But try not to belittle or ridicule her choices. Because they are hers. Try to respect them, and show her you are her friend, whatever choices she may make.

By all means, challenge her views, if you believe them to be wrong, but try to do it in a ‘nice’ way. She may be pretty alone and vulnerable right now; be kind and caring, don’t attack her.

I dunno. Just an idea.

They can’t prove it, as they don’t have a ruler that will stretch to the star, or any genuine way of knowing how old the rock really is. Just educated guesses

They are not educated guesses they are estimates built on tested scientific theories of light and radioactivity. I think science may know something about them- witness lazers and atomic weapons. Good thing about science is that it recognises that there is always uncertainty and that it is very difficult to prove something- Einstein’s theory of relativity has been tested by experiment and observation and has come through time and again but it still remains a theory not a law.

By the way you can’t measure someone’s foot and know that it is 10 inches. You can only know it is 10 inches plus or minus the error in the ruler and the error in your observation of where you think the person’s foot comes on the scale of the ruler.

Science, it could be argued, also has an agenda.

I’d like to know what agenda is Darwin supposed to have had ? All he stood to gain was ridicule and condemnation.The level of religious indoctrination that he had endured throughout his life was enough to precipitate a nervous breakdown when he was confronted by his own findings and theories.

Where is it, then?

They’ve found stuff in the deepest oceans, and brought back pebbles from space.

They’ve never found the Missing Link.

I take it you’ve never heard of a hoatzin, or mudskippers ? Evidence of evoloutionary linkage is there, I think it’s just a case of people sticking their head in the sand because it contradicts that which they want to believe.

uponthedowns- perfectly put.

They’ve found stuff in the deepest oceans, and brought back pebbles from space.

They’ve never found the Missing Link.

I’ll wait until they do, before I ‘believe’.

What do you mean by ‘missing link’ ?
There is a large fossil record of homo species …

i’m surprised by the amount you lot have guessed correctly about her: desperately in need of love etc etc.

The problem is she’s a nasty and manipulative (because of the insecurities?). I’ve tried to get rid of her previously; but she became desparate; calling in the middle of the night threatening to top herself.. etc etc. i spent my final year of uni travelling 100 miles home to see her most weekends to give her the support.

she does need support but i just don’t think that i can do it; she is condusive to healthy relationships – she has a way of making you feel shit about yourself for not doing things her way.

tails: everyone else think she is bonkers too – some of them are Christians most are not. I am the only one not going to the baptism although most of them suggested last night that they had been coerced into it; and were in admiration of my unwaivering refusal to support it!

If i could i would cut all ties, but i have tried to do this several times. I am scared that i won’t be able to do this with out losing all my other friends as she is such a strong influence on the group.

Hold on, people; I din’t say I don’t believe any of Darwin’s theories, did I? I’m just a bit sceptical of some of it.

I’ll admit, I’m playing Devil’s Avocado, here. Interesting to see some people, who know as little as me, defending Science so adamantly. And also inertesting, that a genuine scientist actually admits that a fair bit of science is in fact based on ‘plausible assumptions’. Thank you.

I’m not saying all of Science is wrong, so don’t be so binary about it.

Funny, how questioning Science is the New Heresy…

When I speak of ‘proof’, I mean something that is 100% FACT, as opposed to ‘very probable’.

Very convincing, I’ll agree.

Not proof that Humans evolved from Apes, though, is it?

Hang on, I’ve got Beautiful Zelda from Galaxy Four on the intergalactic ‘phone…

Not proof that Humans evolved from Apes, though, is it?

The classic misunderstanding. Humans and apes evolved from a common ancestor. Not a chimp waking up one morning and suddenly deciding it was going to lose all it’s hair and start talking. Evolution is (unsurprisingly) just a tad more complicated than that, it took Darwin 20 years of unceasing research to be confident enough to publish, I hardly think your 20 minutes of Googling is in the same league…

OP: yeah, guessed the same, I’ve seen it before (a mate’s brother got caught up in it all), he’d kind of lost his way at school, the usual difficulties of hitting puberty, rebelling against his parents wishes/thoughts etc etc and he found “comfort/companionship” in some Christian Creationist group. Took 3 years to get him to finally snap out of it and even then he took much longer to break off all communication with the group such was it’s influence over every aspect of his life.

It is good to keep an open mind.

Religious people might be harmlessly deluded or they might be dangerous lunatics.

That is Foxtrot Uniform Charlie Kilo Loads of evidence that we descend from ‘apes’ though when i say apes im not talking of moneys as we know them as they evolved parallel to the Homo genus of homids.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution

Read that and all the associated links about the various evolutionary pathways that have occurred in the last 8million years then say they is no evidence.

I’ll admit, I’m playing Devil’s Avocado, here.

Could you just change your log in to this for those who have not realised yet?

Who knows FOR DEFINITE what happened in the beginning? Not as if a Daily Mail reporter was there with a notebook to tell us.

So it’s a bit like belief in global warming then…

I’ve spent a lot of time with Christians over the years, the ones that were literal creationists were the only ones I struggled to deal with especially as they tended to have the opinion that if you don’t hold the same views you aren’t a Christian. BTW, I’m a devout agnostic….