[Closed] Bristol trail development consultation

I rode the trail at Ashton Court for the first time in 10 years last weekend. The only thing I can think of, which I think has been said more than once, is that it could do with better sign posting. I passed about 5 people going the wrong way, 2 of which stopped to speak to me (I was waiting for a friend honest!), and they didn't have a clue where they were or where they were going or that they were going the wrong way.

More jumps, bigger berms and better draining.. I realise the last is near impossible!

Once I've been to Ashton a few times, I will certainly be giving you a hand with the trails! 😉

Oh yea & I couldn't find any other trails, apart from the Timberland Trail.

Yo Ant, can you drop me a txt when the venue is sorted?

Can do ADH.

Milkie, the signage (and indeed the direction of the trail) is a good point, and something that has needed addressing for a while now.

Design something with maintenance in mind. No use building something amazing that requires a full time crew to maintain. How about maintenance points where the gravel/hardcore can be dropped in more frequent spots. I think the trails group would appreciate that.

A place where you can clean your bike before heading home.

Yeah, there needs to be more signage to ensure that everyone knows it's a two-way trail 🙄

FWIW, I think that the biggest thing is just having more trails available that are properly weather proof á la Afan. Leigh Woods has the potential to have loads of trail in a relatively small area if planned properly but I guess that the cost is going to be the big issue. Is there any word on what sort of budget is available for all this since that's what's really going to decide what we can/can't have...

Milkie, one of the problems seems to be that the Bristol Bikefest rides it in the other direction, and a lot of people prefer it the other way around, so they ride it in both directions (I know I do).

Personally I don't care, as long as people realize that its ridden in both directions and bear that in mind as they go along thats fine, however that doesn't appear to be the case and I am amazed no one has hurt themselves or someone else yet by crashing into oncoming riders/walkers/runners.

I guess if a return leg was built that fixed the problem that riders having to go down some dull fireroad and alongside the road, might mean that people do it as a loop, rather than cutting back and riding the start in the other direction.

As for what else would be good, well last year I went to Rossland in Canada, and in a small flat(ish) area they had a built a little bike skills park, which had around 20 obstacles, which varied from 3 drops (like at Cwmcarn), a couple of logs to ride along, then a little raised area (around 6 inches high) with a series of planks to ride along, some with little steps, others attached at each end with very short chains so they moved at you rode them, and a couple of seesaws.

I've seen similar skills areas in Scotland, and they are really good and one of the things I think we are lacking in England, so would give a unique selling point to the Ashton Court trails

Regardless, I just want to add that the Ashton Court/50 arce trails are impressive bits of trail, especially when you think that they are built and maintained by volunteers, I just need to get my arse out and help on a dig day to put something back into the trails that I now ride a few times a week (I add them onto my commute home 😉 )

All good suggestions. Keep them coming and I'll either send Phil a link to this thread or print it out before the meeting.

Clubber, the budget is potentially pretty big, but so far only the funding for the study and consultation has been OKed, and any grant will be spread through the South West, so it's still an unknown quantity at the moment. Hopefully there will be some more info on this soon.

If you are thinking of increasing the traffic in 50 acre, Ashton Court and Leigh Woods, someone is going to have a serious think about the bikes crossing the roads to link them up, and how to make it a little safer, as that's a very busy road, used by a lot of people.

The Beggars bush lane crossing is hairy enough at times, as some people (mainly BMW and Audi drivers) seem to want to see just how fast they can go down that road, and the crossing between Ashton Court and North road is worse (IMHO).

May ride there tomorrow and was going to lap the bikefest route...is that backwards then?
Seemed like a good way round to me. Downhills better that way id have thought.

Yeah, there needs to be more signage to ensure that everyone knows it's a two-way trail

There should definitely be some sort of warning sign where the TT crosses Beggar Bush Lane.

backhander, there are some good bits in Leigh Woods that are much more technical than Cwmcarn (XC track) you just need to go and have a look. So with some funding, they could get improved which would mean that you wouldn't need to get in the car for 90 minutes to go for a 80 minute ride. Leigh Woods has enough height, and space to play with, so it should be possible

Personally I use Ashton Court, etc as a loop to keep my eye in for when I go for a proper ride on the weekend.

As for the Beggars Bush Lane crossing, all you need is 2 speed cameras and the problem would disappear, without them its a lethal bit of road.

With Cwmcarn taking me 30-40 minutes, what's the point?

Erm, that kind of IS the point. I agree that if you count just the official trails though Bristol can't really hold a candle to the Welsh centres.

Sounds like your at the stage I attended down at Haldon near Exeter around 8 months ago. Dafydd Davis did a feasibility study and proposal for a new 'red' graded 'swoopy' singletrack trail which sounded like it would be a worthy addition to the trails built by local builders. Then the FC tookover and we've ended up with an extension to the M5 which when held against any other 'red' trail in the country looks like a flat road.

To cut a long story short, If you have some good trails already, dont lose them to be replaced by something worse.

Burchy1, that is the danger, you lose something that's horrible for most of the year but fun in the summer, but you end up with something that's equally bland all year round.

Something does need to be done though, we've been maintaining the trails voluntarily since 2004 here and it's a bit of a Forth Bridge job at times. There is a fine line between challenging trails and a horrible muddy slog.

Thanks for the heads up about the signage folks, was planning to visit for the first time this weekend. Any volunteers for showing me around the place sometime this Saturday?

The bloody signage is so poor, on my first visit I didn't even know to cross the road.
rich,80-90 mins travelling? where to? like I said, Cwm in 35 odd and afan in 1hr10mins. I wish I didn't have to travel even that far but I can't see any options ATM. I've often wondered why there is nothing on the outskirts as AC is so central and can take me 30-40 mins just to get there. Like I say, it would be nice to get involved as the folks seem so nice but the riding is somewhat lacking IMO.

really? it takes me 40 to 45 minutes each way (you have to include getting back!) where are you heading off from.

As for closer stuff for the same or less driving time, you have the Mendips, Quantocks, Exmoor and a large chunk of South Wales within 90 minutes each way of Bristol. You do have to be happy with a map however.

I'm pretty good with a map and compass (although not experienced in pacing with a bike). I live in the burbs in north bristol.
The thing that does ruin my argument for wales is the bridge toll. French ripoff barstewarts.

I love the riding in Bristol - ok, less so in winter when it's glooptastic but then you just ride the trails that aren't marked and so most people don't know about - twisty singletrack does it for me though and I have no problem with it being fairly flat so long as it's fun.

I guess that people who are more into the speed aspect won't find that so good though.

If you are in North Bristol, then the Mendips are very easy/quick to get to and with a bit of exploring there are some decent trails to be found on Rowbarrow & around Cheddar.

Cwmcarn and Afan are good in the winter or when the weather is terrible (I can't even remember the last time I rode them when it wasn't shitting it down) but there is so much better stuff within 90 minutes (each way) of Bristol.

If you do want to ride built trails, Mountain Ash & Gethin are also closer than Cwmcarn.

Anyhow I this is a bit OT now, so sorry Mr A.

I think Backhander's posts raise a reasonable point, which is that if you live 30 minutes ride from the trails like I do, they are great. I love riding from my door, no bother with loading and unloading, petrol money, bridge tolls. I can bump into mates and have a pint on the way home.

If I lived 30 minutes drive away I might be a bit more ambivalent, especially if I had certain expectations of a trail - e.g. a long descent, foolproof waymarking, all weather surface etc.

As i've said above, the current official trails in Bristol aren't the best, and most people tend to mix them up with the cheeky stuff. I wouldn't want to ride the official trail in Cwm Carn week in week out either.

I think the official trail network in Bristol needs improvement of the existing stuff, and introduction of some more challenging trails for the experienced riders, as well as sorting out the places like Leigh Woods where the unofficial trails are just hammered. I don't know whether attracting riders from outside Bristol is a key part of the brief or not yet. If it is, then that will be a big challenge.

But rowberrow and cheddar are south of bristol.
Wooton under edge and the cotswolds are closer for me but I would dearly love to have somewhere to ride from my door for evenings like this one.
I really don't care if the trails are built or nautral but I do want my ride to be as fun as possible and of course I don't ride cwmcarn every week but I thought the example was a good one. I really wish the trails group the very best of luck, it would be great to have some better riding in briz but I don't think we'll ever attract visitors away from Afan and neither should we, areas like Glyncorrwg need the money.

If you do want to ride built trails, Mountain Ash & Gethin are also closer than Cwmcarn.

Doh! for some reason I always think of North Bristol as Bedminster, etc but thats just me being a bit dim. Sounds like you are out at Sadly Broke, which isn't really Bristol, its South Gloucester 😉

As for Mountain Ash being closer, when I've driven there I have noticed its around 5 ten minutes quicker to get to than Cwmcarn. Dunno why, but thats how it always works out.

not sadly broke, a small village closer to emersons green. It's only become s gloucs in recent years and most who've been around a while still regard it as bristol, avon.
Maybe you're a bit quicker as you're a bit more excited to be going there? bit heavier on the old accelerator?

😆 doubt it, apparently I drive like an old man.

I live in North Bristol, Ashton Court might take 20 minutes to drive to and Cwmcarn not that much longer in the scheme of things, but I can ride to AC / LW and then home again (via a huge choice of pubs), especially after work. Dont fancy riding to Cwmcarn, even if it is only an extra 15 minutes by car.

I also like the way you can just ride at AC / LW until you've had enough, no doing laps, wondering if there is time for one more. You're rarely much more than a mile from wherever you started.

Very different riding there too, arguably more technical than most trail centres (definitely far more if you include the LW's descents). I'll carry on riding there as long as I'm in Bristol. Only the thieving scum that loiter there put me off, oh, and the occassional patch of mud....

Backhander - you really ought to check out the Mendips, there's some awesome riding there, especially if you get slightly cheeky around Crook Peak. I'll swap some routes for some stuff nearby in the Cotwolds?

mate, anywhere around the cotswold way is pretty good. Some is cheeky but not many seem to mind and if you choose your times right, you rarely see anyone.
I would begin with the three routes in the "trail guide" section on this site!
I would welcome some mendips advice though!

Did the long route recently, nice stuff around the golf course (actually reminded me of Ashton Court). Was a bit moist though, and didnt have time to play around on the DH stuff near the monument (and was on a hard tail).

I can email from gps routes, or try and describe some otherwise.

I've written a quick summary of the meeting for anyone who's interested:

http://www.bristoltrailsgroup.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=43&start=0

If you could get funding for some of this and some more stone for the bits that don't drain too well that would be good, plus of course the man hours to put the stuff down of course.

Build it and they will come.

[img] [/img]

Now there's a surprise - the first phase will be to atract newbies! Call me cynical but there must be money in there them hills! Ashton court and the Timberland trail in particular could not be made any easier for newbies unless we're talking about family friendly cycle path type tracks. Funny, but when we first rode there as newbies (a long time ago), there were no specific tracks, it was technical and when it rained we got muddy - oh yes and the Timberland trail flowed in the right direction.
Lets just hope that trails like Ho Chi Minh 1,2 &2.5, picnic bench, chamonix and bluebell etc in leigh woods remained untouched (for the locals)and cyling is officially on a "right to roam" basis here - but i wont hold my health & safety breath.
I 'm sure Phil and his team will be do a first class job but lets hope the tracks dont end up like the middle part of timberland in fifty acre wood (formerly porn trail) where most of the holes have been filled and the trail significantly widened - ie sanitised!
Rant over - breakfast time!

Is there somewhere to wash the bikes off after a ride near the golf hut?

I can't help feeling this could all go very wrong and our 'interesting' trails become sanitised.

Hope I'm wrong.

I don't think the idea is to make the trails into wide flat cycle paths. Speaking to the guy who'll be doing the actual works, he has a background in landscape restoration, rides himself (he had just got back from Chamonix) and he also expressed concern over the heavy-handed way some of the trail had been fixed to date, specifically the Hawthorns section. No doubt the trails are going to have a much more "built" feel to them than what's there already, but they should also be narrower, hold up in the Bristol winter and flow a lot better.

The first phase of construction is going to be a blue level trail because there's no way they will get funding for a red or black run - it would be nice for the people who already ride, but it would do nothing to increase the overall number of people. The idea is to build it up in stages and have more challenging trails to follow.

We'll know come September what the design for the trails will actually be, and what additional facilities will be part of the development, but Clifton College (the golf course people) are supporting it, so there might be some provisions for cyclists without outside taps.

Peasnotwar, the trail has widened because of people avoiding the holes. The idea that we fixed the trail, then went to the effort of widening it too is just ridiculous. If you want to keep riding the knackered remains of Ho Chi Minh, they will probably still be there, but I bet you'll be too busy ragging the new trails to bother. 😉

I noticed that someone has started a bike hire facility at near the Golf Hut, nice idea should be a good business if all this trail development takes off.

As an exile, I'm scheduled to return to San Fran Bristo in 2010 (probably...).

Please, don't let the woods end up looking like this.... 😯

[img] [/img]

Aaarrrghh - thats fifty acre.... just kidding
Mr A, didn't mean to be negative but i am definitely getting more cynical as i get older ie why is a cup of tea now £1 in the golf hut - is it to pay for the fancy cladding on the outside or maybe the "no muddy cyclist" signs inside?(strange when their custom has increased significantly due to mtb's).
I used Ho Chi Minh as an example of the preferred type of trail for myself and riding budddies. Yes the original is now over used and messy but do you recall when it was first built and then extended? now that was spanking and the guys built it perfectly only for the FC to tear down the boardwalk sections etc.
I'm a believer in trail evolution - as one gets closed or disappears, another one is found - something we've been VERY fortunate with in the area.
It may be worthwhile doing a poll to ask who/how many have actually carried tools with them to maintain trails whilst riding - or who have gone out specifically to do it. I have, and i'm pretty sure i'm in the minority.
Anyway, keep the good work

peasnotwar, I was one of the people who helped fix up the Ho Chi Minh a few years back (before we started out officially). Despite our best efforts it got mullered very quickly and so have the unofficial trails that have sprung up to replace it. There are only a finite amount of places to ride and it seems that we are no longer at the point we were at a few years back, where if a trail got worn out we could just go and make another one. I also don't think that the type of trail maintenance you can do while out on a ride is enough to keep them in good nick. Even with proper organised sessions we struggle to keep on top of the damage that occurs every winter.

We also have trails like Ashton Court that have been put together in a haphazard fashion, so some bits are ridiculously easy, while others are pretty hard going even for keener riders. My girlfriend is a pretty handy rider, has done the Alps, etc, but she hates the TT because it's so lacking in flow.

I don't think it's as straightforward as saying that new official trails will prompt the closure of unofficial trails. It depends where they are and who manages them - Ashton Court might be a bit heavy-handed when it comes to closing off unofficial trails but that doesn't mean the same is going to apply over in Leigh Woods. The fact that people like the National Trust are supporting the project make me think that this might actually open up more of the woods to mountain bikers.

I think the mountain biking scene in Bristol will keep growing regardless of what state the trails are in, so unless we all want to keep riding the same slowly deteriorating trails forever, change needs to happen. If it works out that the official trails are fun to ride, great. If they turn out to be less engaging for experienced riders, then at least they will be a platform to build on.

As a slight aside, I've started riding the lower section of the TT after years of forgetting about it, it's a cracking bit of trail as good as anything the Welsh trail centres offer.

If they turn out to be less engaging for experienced riders, then at least they will be a platform to build on.

Slightly worrying sentence, Mr_A - my concern would still be that all the good TT stuff (eg upper/lower quarry/BBL) gets completely sanitised in the name of making them beginner friendly and then the money/desire to develop runs out and all we get left with is what we had before but less fun...

How often have there been instances of people accepting loss of their existing facilities with the promise of better replacements only for the replacements to either not be what was promised or not appearing at all.

I guess I'd like to hear about the full plan for further development before being willing to accept existing stuff being 'improved'. Agreed, a solution is needed but I think we have to be vary careful not to be naive in believing everything that's promised and appearing so desperate for something that we just accept whatever's proposed. Maybe having a clear development plan that mixes development of the beginner stuff with development of the more advanced stuff would be a good starting point (eg blue-ify half of the BBL section then create a red/black section, then finish the rest of BBL, etc) and would probably get a good indication of the real intentions.

In fact, come to think of it, we should be pushing to have new trails as the blues rather than replacing any existing stuff - eg the bridleway that runs along most of BBL would be perfect if developed and so on

Very well put clubber, I'll bet put a pound to a penny that the beginner trails will be part of the AC loop.

Clubber, that's a valid point, and I sort of agree, but it seems logical to redevelop Ashton Court first, as it's the focal point for riding in Bristol and all the current facilities like car parking and cafe (the one that sells the rip-off tea 😉 ) are there too.

The Quarry Trail was mentioned as a good bit of trail but the first section along Beggar Bush Lane has various problems - the direction issue, the fact that parts of it are very weatherbeaten, while other parts have been steamrollered - and I think the new design is going to address these and "even it out" slightly, while making better use of the space that we have (but not in a rat's intestines kind of way like the old 50 Acre trail). Phil did specifically mention that there was scope to build more challenging lines in tandem with the all abilities stuff. They are also going to look into the possibility of adding in a proper descent but it is early days yet - there are still a few months of consultation and surveying to come.

Kingtut, I don;t think anyone who was at the consultation would take that bet - they pretty much came out and said as much. What you do need to bear in mind is that there is potentially a lot of money up for grabs if the 1SW project's funding bid is successful - in which case, trails catering for differing abilities of user, easy and hard, will be part of the package.

You're in a much better position for 1SW money than Mendip. Doubtless you'll be aware you fulfill more criteria, being substantively closer to loads of population.

Mendip is seen as 2nd tier or possibly even lower at the moment!

Good luck!

Where are all these trails!? All I know of is the Timberland Trail, or at least thats the only one I can find any info on.

Also is there already a place to wash your bikes at the Kiosk?

Scienceofficer, that's the other thing, we are so near to having the infrastructure you need to become a proper MTB destination (which is what the 1SW project is about), it just hasn't quite been pulled together yet.

Milkie, there may be some confusion going on (places like the Quarry trail, Beggar Bush etc are actually part of the Ashton Court trail) but have a look here:

http://www.bristoltrailsgroup.com/Trail_info.htm

I'm not aware of any bike wash facilities at the cafe.

Nice one! Thats a much better detailed map.

Looking forward to any improvements, although I think its rather good as it is. I went up yesterday morning, great fun in the wet! 😀

Definately need a tap/hose to wash the bikes off tho!

Be careful you don't get passed by and lose your voice. Hopefully it won't happen, but its always a danger to consider with these big budget public accountability projects.

Independently I'd heard that Devon/Cornwall was 1st on the priority list because is has nothing at all, and that Bristol was second on the priority list since it is pretty close to having all the basics in place already.

[i]I'm a believer in trail evolution - as one gets closed or disappears, another one is found[/i]

Amen. When I was a kid, growing up on none-more-muddy Mendip, I used to argue that we should ride the trails on a "crop rotation" basis (I even wrote a piece of GCSE General Studies coursework about it... 😳 ).

For me, "challenging" singletrack is not a neatly raked single-lane BMX course. It's about all the subtle nuances that Mother Nature and random chance throw into the mix - threading-the-needle (doing that little shrug with yer bars) through tightly spaced trees and staying upright over a tangle of wet roots. At their best, the lines in LW took you over ruined walls, round old charcoal pits, mine-workings and god-knows what else. They had real character. Accordingly, there's a thin line between "sustainable" trails and long, dull stretches of crazy-paving. This is not, er, a [i]dig[/i] at the quite excellent work of the BTG (before I was banished into exile, I remember helping to clear up in the aftermath of the great broken Boardwalk affair, what a mint section that was...) - just comment on what I've seen happen [i]elsewhere[/i]. So, best of luck - but also, be careful!

(Ah, the mossy depths of 50 Acre (with its particular quality of light) - how I miss thee... I'll be back, someday. 😀 )

just been thinking about paul and the bikefest.
what happens when the timberland trail around AC get made into a blue route?
people will still ride the next year but if it's too smooth they won't be back the year after, so hows this going to affect bikefest?

I agree in the notion of evolution and trail rotation noteeth, however the situation in Bristol has got beyond this by quite some extent. The sheer traffic the trails get means all the trails get massacred pretty quickly. As it isn't one group using the trails, but hundreds of individuals and seperate anarchic groups, it isn't possible to 'rest' some trails. Trails only get avoided when they're too horrible to ride.

In the particular case of Leigh Woods, the Ho Chi Minh got into a terrible state. The BTG stood no chance in fixing it without any stone, or time left over after filling holes as quick as humanly possible in LW and 50-acre, or indeed any mandate, as the debarcle of the badger bridge demonstrated. Quite a lot of the old LW trails got opened up again after many years in a semi-dormant state, and a few new ones where made, simply so people could get off the Ho Chi Minh.

Now those trails are pretty mashed too. The situation isn't sustainible in the least, by any means, getting some cash in to get one route fixed up properly is rapidly becoming our only course of action in LW.

Hopefully this will take the pressure off the network of other bristolian favorites, and having talked to Phil Saxena I'm pretty happy that he can build a well surfaced trail that won't be like a giant BMX track and will still have a bristolian feel. He's local and understands this.

TBF I'm not sure we're going to loose anything even if the HCM gets tarmaced (which I hasten to add, it isn't). Even in summer it is now rutted, devoid of flow and pretty hacked up. There will still be a host of old favorites off the main trail for the locals to enjoy, hopefully the new trail will take 90% of the considerable traffic and we can all enjoy the new facilities and revamped timberland.

so hows this going to affect bikefest?

I doubt that will be high on the list of considerations.... regardless, as I said above, I'd hope that the existing trails retain their level of technical difficulty with new easier (eg blue) trails built along side them which would be fairly easy for most - BBL has a bridleway along the length of it, Upper and lower quarry have a fire road (the bit you rode uphill for a bit during this year's BBF straight after you came off the bridge). There's no real reason for the existing stuff to be downgraded in order to build family routes though I am concerned that it will still be considered an option...

what happens when the timberland trail around AC get made into a blue route?

They may have a load more options and trail to play with. The idea is to make a trail thats easy to bimble down at 5mph, but fun, rollercoastery and hard to ride at race pace. Seen as you can't have 50ft gap jumps in an XC marathon race course, I don't think it'll be worse, I think it'll be a whole load better. Phil is def keen to add extra harder bits of trail off the main route, no reason the bikefest can't use them, but just recall all the choke points in the past few years where loads of people are off and walking are bits which are not really that technically challenging ...

If it all comes off as intended mind ...

Theres alot of talk about flow on this thread, like its meant to be the zenith of trail nirvana.

Bastard difficult, awkward 'thrutchy' stuff with no flow and tricky momentum shifts can be fun too you know!
8)

Clubber, you seem to be implying that sending a new "blue" route along a track or fire road is going to cut out the middleman. I think you're doing Phil a disservice - from talking to him and working with him he really wants to build trails that are genuinely engaging to ride as well as sustainable and suitable for beginners. I did bang home your point at the meeting, and even printed out this thread and showed them comments like Burchy's above.

I agree with Noteeth that the twisty, rooty, natural-feeling trails we have round here are truly excellent, unfortunately most of them have now been worn beyond all recognition from a few years ago. It's time to move on, rather than try to patch up the same tired and ugly bits of trail year in year out. I don't think the Bike Fest will suffer either if there are new trails for it to use.

I agree, but when all the trails are like that becuase of bike swallowing holes, wheelbase length apart, for the entire length - it gets a bit much 🙂 And when its wet, your choices boil down to trials that have bike swallowing holes, wheelbase length apart, full of water, or 2m wide with 6" deep slurry, its not really condusive to a fun time.

I'm pretty sure the old trails will be left for your thrutching needs too 😉

Scienceofficer, I think with reference to the "flow", I don't mind awkward techy stuff on a gradient (up or down) where you feel like you're actually going somewhere and achieving something, but bear in mind we're talking about somewhere fairly flat, with no penalty for not riding stuff cleanly, and no way of keeping people on the line.

Sorry if I sound like an apologist for the trail-sanitisers here, but to be honest
a) I think there's potential for the redevelopment to be really good, and
b) I'm getting a bit sick of people being protective over increasingly knackered trails that comparatively few mountain bikers seem to want to actually preserve or maintain.

[i]the situation in Bristol has got beyond this by quite some extent[/i]

I admit I've been away for a few years (though it feels like centuries... 😯 ). Put it this way, when I used to regularly roll around LW (so to speak), Imperial Records was still open...

Anyway, judging by this thread, there are level heads all round. I look forward to seeing what the future brings (Park Street is being turned into a giant 4X course, you say?). 😀

Things have been quietly moving on. The first version of the trail design and study is complete, and is nearing the end of the approval process. There should also be a decision on whether the funding for the wider project (across the whole of the South West) is approved, within the next 1-2 weeks.

For more details have a look here:

http://www.bristoltrailsgroup.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8&p=185#p185

And by way of a cheeky plug, if you want to do something to improve the trails here and now, we're running a dig day in 50 Acre Wood this Saturday. More details here:

http://www.bristoltrailsgroup.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=62