As there's been so much discussion on suspension designs of late, I thought I'd ask a question of my own. I suspect some of the stuff described in the [url= http://www.dw-link.com/reasons.html ]dw-link site[/url] are exagerated, but that may not actually make it wrong.
So are there any downsides to the DW-link design?
Cost of manufacture/RRP is high
you wonder what the point of propedal is?
I've got a Pivot Mach 4 DW link bike and have found it to be the best for me so far. I've owned most designs over the years (Klein Mantra URT, Haro Extreme single pivot (think Santa Cruz), Trek Fuel linkage activated faux bar, Stumpy four bar and Intense Spider VPP) and am enjoying the Pivot more than any of them so far. Theres no pedal bob, no noticeable pedal feedback and its really plush. You can run crazy sag - had 35% sag today as an experiment and there was no wallowy sogginess pedalling just buttery smoothness. It has an RP23 propedal shock but i've never felt the need for the propedal (even honking roads or bridleways) - i believe Pivot specced the RP23 shock because they believe it is the best performing air shock out at the moment regardless of whether you need the propedal function. My previous favourite was the VPP Intense which i thought was pretty special but the Pivot is a yard ahead again.
Haven't found any downsides yet.
Can't use a coil shock on the 'trail' bike DW links apparently due to the serious regressive rate at some point in the curve. Not sure how bad it would be on a coil though, you might be able to dial it out with a fandango new shock like a CCDB.
Plenty of turner's with coil shocks!I have a 5spot with a rp23 as mentioned propedal is not needed.Had a few spots and about to get a 2011 frame,best Turner so far,only downside is cost and a small gain in weight 😆
Very intrested in this as I'm looking to swap from a Horst-link bike to an ibis HD. Really would like to know more about not being able to run a coil, as I have always used a coil on my "bigger" bikes, have one on my 100mm travel bike and its great on that. My current bike came with an RP23 and I just couldn't get on with it.
My Iron Horse has the DW linkage. I love it. In my line of work I have ridden a lot of different full sus set ups. I can say hands down, the DW link really does work well, but as said above it does come with a high price tag.
wait a minute i distinctly people complaining that turner going from hl to dw was the end of the world and a step backwards etc etc
kimbers, I think the original change was HLink to "Kona swingarm" wasn't it ?
I'm sure you get a coil shock tuned to suit, but you wouldn't be able to whack on a Vanilla without any tuning work first. Probably. Give TF Tuned a call. In fact, if ChunkyMTB comes along I'm sure he'll fill you in as he has a coil for his DW 5 Spot that he got from TF.
Lovely. So, I just have to work harder / longer to afford one. Well... probably going to have a Flux anyway (subject to test ride) so don't care about the coil stuff. Thanks for the input.
http://www.dw-link.com/reasons.html# is one of the worst examples of pseudo-science I have ever seen.
With reference to the above 'science' can someone please explain "Rapid chainstay length change" surely looking at this from maybe a very simplistic point of view how can a chainstay lengthen?
It's a length of metal or even carbon (!) that, in the case of a normal 4/faux bar set up is fixed to the frame via the lower pivot and unless the chainstay someway flexes substantially under suspension forces the rearward pivot/joint connecting to the seatstay can't alter in length. Or are we talking about perceived chainsty lengthening?
Or is it in reality how the 'virtual' length of the seatstay may alter due to the change in position of the upper link before it meets the link that drives the shock and the upper link moving closer to the lower pivot as the shock is compressed/wheel moves up.
Or do I just not believe the hype?
Is DW link anything like the giant trance ? - that's ace, notwithstanding any pseudoscientific bollocks they may spout
Weagle vs Ellsworth in a-who spouts the most spurious technobabble bs competition.
Who wins.....(geordie accent) yooooooo deeeeciiide.
P.s Please god don't let this be the start of another 300 post suspension for dummies diatribe (not that i did'nt read every post 😳 )
I thought of one-all dw bikes are ugly-including Ibis Mojo (runs for cover).
the length of a chainstay physically can't change, but due to geometry the distance from the bottom bracket to the dropout can change. Remember that the pivots are usually not at the dropout or bottom bracket. Take the usual high mounted single pivot, as the swingarm rises the distance from bottom bracket to dropout grows a little at first. that is basically what they are talking about.
So to answer the question it is about effective length not real length.
as for whether dw-link is good or bad, the answer is probably yes and no, depends on the rider and what they expect. Don't believe the marketing, it is there to SELL.
Nah - Turner Sultan is a thing of beauty in a monster truck stylee.
my final contribution, i seem to remember every version of Turner bikes being proclaimed the best, yet forgetting to mention why they changed the design.
It is marketing, bike designs have to change to justify selling new products to middle aged IT bods with large disposable incomes, but not a lot of time and who are trying to find things that will make them "better" riders.
I think Turner were forced to change design away from horst as they no longer had a contract to run the design, they then looked around and designed the frame around the DW link.
They had TNT in between those. To be honest,after riding horst back to back with all the exact same kit on a tnt version..i would go for a tnt.
anyone selling a flux in med?
It just works. I've been riding my Iron Horse Mk III for 4 years now, which is the cheapest DW link bike you could get.
Apart from the swingarm cracking in 2 places & the company going under, they're a great ride at a bargain price.
No fancy shock, just a Float R, which is all it needs. Mine has been welded back together because I can't afford anything as good.
As I've argued previously, DW and Maestro have a lot in common with single pivot designs.
Which also work very well 😎
is the common bit that they have pivots?
😀
if you can't work it out I'm not explaining it!
cynic-al - Member
As I've argued previously, DW and Maestro have a lot in common with single pivot designs.
So do humans and monkeys...
Like I said tree, if you refuse to apply your brain... 😀
*bodypops out of thread*
What do humans and monkeys have in common with single pivot, DW and Maestro suspension systems?
single-pivot designs characteristically require platform shocks to perform well, dw-links don't - that implies a fundamental difference...
It implies you believe what you read in the magazines more like...
wtf is a DW-link?
surely you mean the Edge-link?
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To me, that looks like a DW link, but I suspect there is a reason why it isn't. Probably something to do with axle part or something.
I don't buy magazines...
the reason that the Edge bikes aren't DW-links is because the Edge design is older.
that's right, the 'DW-link' was designed in Sheffield.
they even messed around with 'co-pivots' and 'full-floating' designs.
the reason that the Edge bikes aren't DW-links is because the Edge design is older.that's right, the 'DW-link' was designed in Sheffield.
they even messed around with 'co-pivots' and 'full-floating' designs.
What went wrong?
i'm not entirely sure, their business strategy was perhaps a little agressive...?
from memory: the first batch of bikes was delivered 6months behind their business-plan-schedule.
their sales went according to the planned curve, but 6months behind.
this was enough for the bank to pull the plug.
one of the Edge blokes is still messing around with bike design, he's an actual genius. the stuff he's doing is the stuff the rest of us talk about in the pub when we're having the 'what will bikes look like in 10 years' conversation.
and he's one of the most skilfull riders i've ever seen.
what a git.
DW Link is the best design I've ridden to date. I haven't found any major downsides yet, over and above things like added complexity over single pivot designs.
BTW whilst many of the DW designs have been built around using an air can, coil shocks work well - I ran a CCDB on my 5-Spot and was blown away with the improvement it made. The Mojo HD can also be run with a coil, with Ibis recommending a Fox RC4, but having spoken to Cane Creek, you can also make sensible adjustments to them to adapt it.
FYI Edge bikes were designed to mimick the idrive in terms of suspension action and the first gen DW link predated them... just.
ahwiles - Member
wtf is a DW-link?
surely you mean the Edge-link?
edge weren't the first either! canondale was the first example of multi link bike i can remember, i'm sure somebody did it before them. canfield brothers have been making ml bike for a long time. not the same as a dw link but trying to achieve the same thing.
there's a lot of dw link haters around?
there's plenty of suspension designs, that will suit some and not others.
I tested many bikes in the search for my new one and found the DW Link equipped Mojo HD my favourite. The DW Link system actually surprised me with how good it felt, even on the other bikes that I tested with it. I had read the marketing stuff but mainly dismissed it TBH, a 'perfect' suspension system, blah blah blah, heard it before! The main drawback seems to be expense and possibly changing bearings at some point. I feel the bike does everything very well and have not found any down sides yet. As for coil, the HD was designed around air, and so increases leverage rate at the end of the stroke to overcome the additional air resistance as the shock is compressed, coil shocks with bottom out assist such as the RC4 are said to work with it according to Ibis, I'm sure it is similar for Turner and Pivot.
From my pov the big drawback to DW-link is that you have 8 bearings right in the path of all the crap ... single pivot is not clearly the most efficient suspension, but riding in muck most of the year, the low maintenance more than balances that out for me. 🙂
what went wrong with edge was that they were heavy and ugly and about three people bought them. shame really.
flipping heck
tripple post
No bearings on my dw-links
Is it not a case of choose your placebo/skill compensator, then justify the choice?
I half believe that with the technology available today just about any design can be made to work acceptably for any purpose. Although won't be holding my breath for the arrival of a URT DH bike.
I'm more than happy with the DW link performance, and that's the only criteria I need to worry about- it works for me a lot better than the (admittedly older) designs I've had previously.
As an aside, on my original Mojo propedal made no discernible difference- but on the HD, though it's running the short shock and 140 travel, I seem to need it. Though as cynic-al suggests, it's might just be (my) sloppy pedalling that makes it necessary. I guess each incarnation of the DW link has slightly different characteristics.
mr big was urt dh bike hand built in the north east andthough not available now were very popular in the north east and i have to say did seem to work well.