Am sure lots of you are familiar with Wharncliffe in Sheffield. Well, the woodland adjacent is Greno Woods, and has recently been bought up by the Wildlife Trust.

They have/are in the process of having stakeholder meetings. One of the meetings was with local mountain Bikers about developing the woods.

I'm really impressed that an organisation liek this is interested in getting Mountain Bikers into the area.

This is the latest on what's going on for anyone that fancies getting invloved:

All,

Apologies for the delay in responding to people – I’ve been busy on various things following the acquisition but have a bit of time now to think more about biking. Thanks to everyone who came on 18th – great to see such enthusiasm for biking in the Wharn-Greno area. As promised I’ve attached the Greno leaflet which provides some basic information and a map of the landholding.

I’ve got a meeting with the other forest owners (FC and SCC) next week and biking will be one of the items on the agenda – will provide an update following this. We also have a few other things coming up – an invite-only key stakeholder event on site at 10 am on the 17th September. Steve P, Henry Winter (Ride Sheffield) and Dan Cook (CTC) will be invited to represent the interests of bikers. The second event is a more general open day/consultation event – this is on the 26th September 11 – 4 pm. I suggest as many bikers as possible attend this, to give your views on how the site should develop. I’m also planning on going up to site on the 10th Sep at 10 am with a view to mapping out the bike trails using GPS – if anyone with good local knowledge wants to give me a hand with this please let me know. In terms of a follow-up biking meeting, I’m thinking of organising something in October as there’s quite a bit going on in September.

Our website for the site has recently gone live – check out http://www.grenowoods.com . Keen to have a specific page on this for biking with some good images etc – anyone keen to help me with this let me know. Someone suggested setting up a facebook group – will look into this.

We’ll also be launching our public appeal soon – through a combination of grant funding and the public appeal need to raise £1Million to buy the woods outright and carry out essential management/maintenance work. Would Sheffield’s mountain bike community be up for the challenge of raising £50k towards this over the next two years?

What can you do to support biking within Greno?

Feed your ideas through to Steve/Henry/Dan so your views are taken to the stakeholder event
Attend the public open day on 26th September (11-4pm)
Attend and contribute to any future Greno Bikers meetings
Support us in our fundraising efforts – buy 10m2 for £10
Become a member of Sheffield Wildlife Trust at http://www.wildsheffield.com (only £24/year)

Thanks,

Roy

This sounds awesome but haven't the trails over the road hit a brick wall in terms of construction and funding?

wharncliffe woods is owned by the fc. i think thats why there is no funding.

The ones on Wharncliffe have yeah. Singletraction were the guys doing the trail building. That's owned by the FC and run by the FE who have put a stop on any 'authorised' trail building.

This is different people altogether in the Wildlife Trust.

Great to hear that the Wildlife trust are embracing mountain bikers in terms of 'stakeholders'……certainly an interesting time around here at the moment, with the Eastern Moors partnership taking a similar initiative around the peak/blacka area….

I was up there on Saturday. Some nice trails. Started from Longshaw Car park.

I don't understand this. there is far too much consulting and talk going on but in the end very little, if anything happens.

you have a woodland that is open to the public to use, continue to let them use it.

why isn't it as simple as that?

I guess because the trails in Greno keep getting destroyed and knocked down by various people. If this happens and some official trails get built, it'll be harder for them to do that.

the people wrecking the trails are local residents who don't like cyclists. inviting more cyclists there isn't going to help the matter one bit.

if proper trails get built they will be family friendly so as to avoid any perceived danger and because they have to make sure they appeal to all skill levels not just a select few.

this means some people will use them as quick loops and bomb round them and people looking for the old trails will build new ones because these ones are too tame. these will get wrecked because they are not sanctioned.

both these outcomes will result in more conflict.

the sooner these organised bodies understand the difference between mountain bikers and leisure cyclists the better. and the sooner any of these 101 proposed new "mountain biking" areas around Sheffield happen the better because more and more people are using bikes and more and more people aren't going to wait forever or for the local tip to close in 8 years so they are just going to ride whenever and where ever.

but don't worry about anything I've said because its just Podge on another rant

but we like your rants podge.

X

that's not the impression that was relayed back to me after Emma's hag weekend…

what was it? "oh! we don't like to mention that while Podge is around, he tends to go off on one"

Go the the meetings then and air your views there. That's the whole point. They want peoples opionions. They're not gonna look on here to see what people think. 🙂

I've been to the meetings.

My opinion wasn't suitable.

I no longer go to meetings.

thepodge – Member
we don't like to mention that while Podge is around, he tends to go off on one

er, yeah. something a little bit like that – topic 'X' was/is a bit of hot topic of yours, so i/we tried not to mention it much while you were there – i thought it was considerate…

(sorry for any offence – seriously)

anyway, keep ranting!

Not a Sheff resident at the moment, but I'm with Podge. I know SWT is reliant on donations, and part of that is trying to attract visitors, who you hope will enjoy the site and pay towards the upkeep, and also make funding applications easier.

When I saw "ancient woodland" on the same page as "mountain biking" I had a bit of a WTF moment. Build trails somewhere else. The dog walkers who aren't interested in leads and picking up their shit are bad enough.

I remember some of the shore stuff that was built there about 7 or 8 years ago. Mental is the only way to describe it. 10ft in the air but really well put together… Just before you got to Peatys Drop.

On the subject of Wharncliffe etc, are the trails in Wharncliffe proper decent for an afternoon? Used to ride DH there years ago and not been since any of the official stuff went in. Used to riding Calderdale tech so quite fancy having a crack on the DH courses having seen some of the pics. Look mint! Also, is the XC loop suitable to ride or is it half finished in that it just ends in the middle of nowhere!? Maps?

The local SingletrAction guys tried and failed with develoments in Wharncliffe. I aly a lot of this at the door of the beat forester who did not want to seem to engage and a number of other FE related factors. Such is life and one of the downs in the ups-and-downs of this sort of thing. To say I (and all the locals) think FE were missing a HUGE trick goes without saying.

Also, not that I'm particularly agreeing with podge but both woods have a long history and a big existing contingent of builders and users. Whenever anything was tried in Wharncliffe the amount of anti sentiment from other riders was pretty major and a hard thing to deal with, especially as it tended to be voiced / discussed on the internet (great medium 😉 whilst also being "amended" physically, on site.

Winning those guys over without the support of FE and any proposals getting sanctioned justs made life even harder.

Again, crazy when you think about the site, it's potential and the fact it's Peaty's backyard.

I sure hope Greno is a success and have offered our help if it's of use.

Podge – this is a gret little read about advocacy:

How to be an Effective Campaigner
Based on a note from Jim Hasenauer. President IMBA (US)

One of the most frustrating things for me has been dealing with anti-bike zealots whose ideology gets in the way of any dialogue. We bike advocates also have to be mindful of how we pursue our work, and the following notes from the Libertarian website puts it pretty clearly, so I though I'd pass it on. One of the things I'm most proud of is IMBA's and mountain bike advocate's reputation as being positive, responsible and high road. — Jim Hasenauer.
Gresham's Law of Activists
There are some people in the libertarian movement who are bad activists. Even though they may be "OK" ideologically, they do not forward the cause of freedom. Even if they do make positive contributions, on balance they actually harm the movement. It is not always easy to spot a bad activist at first glance. No one is perfect and many outstanding activists slip into bad habits from time to time. Nonetheless, the bad activist tends to be remarkably consistent. Virtually every bad activist puts his or her personal or factional) interests ahead of the purpose of the organization or cause. The good activist expresses his or her individuality through the choice of joining the organization if it identifies with his or her personal interests. The bad activist will sacrifice the interest of the organization for power, status, enrichment, or some other form of short-term ego gratification. It is harder to be a good activist than a bad one. But campaigners need to achieve a real "gold standard of activists" to defeat Gresham's Law of Activists and not put up with bad behavior.

How to spot a bad activist as opposed to a good activist:
THE GOOD ACTIVIST

Tries to be reasonable, polite, and considerate.
Is more concerned about getting results and is anxious to give credit to others as a way to encourage them to continue what they are doing.
Is basically modest and recognizes the importance of cooperation of others.
Wants other activists to participate in the decision process whenever possible & to understand what is being done and why.
Is always interested in new ideas and encourages involvement by others.
Tries to disagree without becoming personal or being disagreeable.
Is very uncomfortable with factions and is reluctant to condemn even the worst bad activist, but will do so if necessary to limit the damage.
Is inclined to recognize good work by anyone and ignore the rest.
Keeps criticism to a minimum and always has positive suggestions.
Is inclined to give people the benefit of the doubt, does not get upset with inadvertent and unintentional slights, and will forgive even intentional acts if the person shows he or she regrets the action.
THE BAD ACTIVIST

Tends to be argumentative, insulting, obnoxious, and is indifferent to the effect her or she has on others.
Tries to take credit for any accomplishments, even ones which are primarily the results of someone else's efforts.
Has delusions of grandeur and makes sure everyone is aware of his or her titles and status.
Tends to be secretive and cliquish.
Never listens to what other people have to say.
Reacts to any disagreement with angry outbursts, condemnations, or personal attacks. Is quite willing to disrupt meetings and alienate bystanders in the process.
Tends toward factionalism and is inclined to purge activists who are not included in the faction.
Is constantly critical of anything done by people in opposing factions.
Devotes considerable time and effort to criticizing other people in the organization.
Is constantly being "offended" and is inclined to hold grudges.

From here: [http]http://www.imba.org.uk/research_and_reports/EffectiveCampaigning.html[/http]

Adam, don't worry about it, its not a problem, I know full well I can be a pain in the neck some / most times. By the way, those were some interesting pics Su had from the other night 😉

I've not been up to Greno Woods but I've heard a lot about it being good. However I'd happily give them up to walkers and dog owners if I saw any progress on Lady Cannings, Parkwood Springs or the Bridal Way issues up around Fox Hagg and Rivelin Rocks but its all stuck in endless piles of red tape and doesn't seem to be showing any signs of coming to a conclusion, good or bad. And as I've pointed out before, it doesn't matter how many times Steve Pete's name is dropped into the conversation as a consultant, following it up with "we hope to implement this when the council tip is scheduled to close some time in or after 2018" or describing it as "suitable for all skill levels" (read family / blue runs) is basically just a kick in the nuts. what mountain bikers need (must remember to add the obligatory IMHO) is a hillside to call their own, this could well reduce the (frowned upon) building in Wharncliffe, the wrecked trails in Greno and the conflict at Blacka but that's the moon on a stick and I realise that for many reasons it cannot be done.

DaveyBoyWonder, Wharncliffe is really good as an XC loop but you need a guide as a lot of it is easy to miss and unmarked or moved since they logged large sections of it. I would offer my services but I'm not around much more till the end of the year. All the downhills are easily accessible but the building seems to have gone feral and they are now quite messy as no one is maintaining them. what used to be tight tech singletrack is now a huge bus lane down the hill in some places.

Cheeky Monkey, I think I'm a middle activist. I'd happily help out but I'm finding I'm being lured over to the bad activist side by the lack of visible action on the ground.

What exactly is wrong with having blue trails? People like me that are new to MTB, and kids need somewhere to learn.

It can't all be made for those already proficient enough to tackle the harder stuff.

fwiw, my girlfriend and all her single female friends are desperate for a bit of swoopy blue action.

itsan internet fact that swoopy blue trails = women on bikes.

ace!

(and shaun up there will be in a perfect position to meet them)

Oh really? Lets keep that quiet. If Mrs Shaun finds out, I'll be walking everywhere.

There is nothing wrong with blue trails but when you are (and I'm making some huge assumptions here) looking to replace Greno's existing trails (graded roughly red & black) with blue ones and asking more proficient mountain bikers and groups to help out, I see it as a bit wrong.

I also feel we'll have a repeat of what happened with the skate park where by the council provided it but then put in a bylaw stating cycling anywhere else in the city centre was liable to land you with a hefty fine. my fear is that we'll get all these blue trails but loose access to many many more areas.

valid concerns, yes.

see? that's the kind of thing you should be taking to the meetings.

thanks. I think I did take it to the meetings, but may have been side tracked my a number of other "rant worthy" issues before I got to put my point across properly.

my feelings are that if Greno (and other free built places) were bridal ways we'd be up in arms about it being sanitised but some how we're looking at this case (and others) as a positive thing because we're being asked to help.

Sheffield has MASSES of potential but we're loosing bridal ways to sanitation and closures, we already have well below the national average as it is. Upgrading paths and opening up access is taking a painfully long time and anywhere that we do have that is already good we're either band from it or looks like it may be managed / downgraded by family friendly groups.

Right, I'm off to the pub soon so you can have some peace and quiet

tight tech singletrack is now a huge bus lane

So the old Diamond Back trail has returned then?!

Might appreciate it if someone could act as a guide sometime. Would be more than happy to return the favour on some of Calderdales 'famous' trails (and a lot of its less famous trails!).

Agree with podge about the route grading thing. The existing trails I always used to ride there were tough… replacing them with family routes would be a big mistake. With the Peaks on the doorstep which are littered with relatively easy going bridleways, there is scope to make Wharncliffe and Greno into almost 'bike park' status. Somewhere that will attract riders from miles and miles around. Heck, its only a couple of hours blast up the M1 from north London area, easy reach of Newcastle, Manchester etc. Couldn't really be better placed to create a showcase mountain bike venue.

Thats in my dreams though… In reality, a passionate mountain biker (or group of riders) who can avoid all the conflicts of interest with walkers etc needs to just buy up a wooded hillside somewhere and get funding to build a load of trails. Charge people a couple of quid a day to ride etc.

With the Peaks on the doorstep which are littered with relatively easy going bridleways

Really?! – i'd love you to show me some!

a common problem with my circle of friends is a lack of easy trails for otherhalves to get to grips with.

yes, i understand you mean 'easy' when compared to some of the techy stuff in wharncliffe/greno. but most of the (few) bridleways in the Peak are quite steep, and covered in loose shifting rocks, they're pretty scary for beginners.

I remember when I was a lad, I had to go from riding around on the dirt track next to the footy pitches to riding BWs in and around the NYM. I didn't have the luxury of being nursed into things by doing green, blue routes etc to work up to the black stuff. I suspect 99.9% of the people on here are in the same boat…

and it might just be why almost all of us are men.

swoopy blues = more girls on bikes.

it must be true, i just made it up.

a common problem with my circle of friends is a lack of easy trails for otherhalves to get to grips with.

Very much agree with this but we need to retain some more tech areas that people can progress to.

Also, I was thinking about this last night…

1) Why does Greno need developing?
2) Where the chuff is the money going to come from? they are suggesting that mountain bikers raise 50k just to buy the place, nothing to do with any existing or new trails.

1) Why does Greno need developing?

I think the question is more like "Who can we enlist to help raise funds to look after the woods, and what do we have to do to get them on board"

I've just looked at their £1million appeal website and I can't see many (any) references to mountain biking on it.

I have nothing against Sheffield Wildlife Trust, my kids are enrolled as members, they do great things. Just can't see the link with the kind of biking that users of this forum are interested in (generally).

I agree with above, if greno woods were developed it is likely to end up fairly tame as they seem to want to appeal to every one, dog walkers, wildlife spotters etc. This is fine, it would be somewhere we could go as a family, to bridge the gap between up and down the monsal trail, and the easiest dark peak bridalways (perhaps over houndkirk to the foxhouse is the obvious example- a fairly simple starter trail for mountain biking but way beyond my kids and possibly some noobs to mountain biking), but It wouldn't turn it into a bike park.
There isn't a whole lot of space in greno woods, and iirc it isn't as steep as wharnecliffe (putting it mildly) so the scope is probably quite limited. It would be far better to try to fully develop wharnecliffe to its full potential but it seems that that won't happen for the foreseeable future.

I notice a mention of lady Cannings further up this thread- what is happening there? I am probably among the many who nip through from ringinglow village to the top edge of the woods to miss out the road before crossing houndkirk, I know this is cheeky but I have never ever had any of the many walkers and dog owners say anything. Are we talking about permissive bridalway status? That would be great- as long as it doesn't get rescinded like the stretch at the top of Blacka

Lady Cannings…

Sheffield council own these woods and have suggested that they might be interested in putting some trails in there. The quality, style and status of these trails is yet to be decided.

As far as I know there is still lots of NIMBY and local protesting so it'll be a while before you see anything official.

"swoopy blues" are no more than Sustrans routes with some berms thrown in.

Swoopy blues are being planned at Parkwood Springs