Viewing 37 posts - 1 through 37 (of 37 total)
  • Possibly the ultimate go faster upgrade
  • Onzadog
    Free Member

    I love spending money on spangly bits to make my bike better and faster. Ti shock springs for £140, carbon bars for £100, you know the sort of thing. However, as much a I like this stuff, it's never actually make my riding any better or any faster.

    However, I've just dropped £125 on something that did exactly that. I spent an afternoon with Mike Veal at bikedynamics. I didn't really have any problems with position to speak of and I thought I was pretty much on the ball with the fit on my bike. I did have a bit of a niggle in my left knee but nothing major. I'd also bought some cleat wedges and fancied getting them set up properly.

    Long story short, my saddle is now lower, my feet rolled out more than I expected with the wedges and I'm flying up hills like I've found a couple of extra gears somewhere. He also confirmed that 175mm cranks are the right length for me and the stem/bars I've chosen for the bike were the right ones, which is reassuring. My knees are now tracking straighter and I'm making more use of other muscle groups.

    Very highly recommended!

    Stevie-P
    Free Member

    Indeed, it makes a massive difference eh!

    stevomcd
    Free Member

    If I'm reading this right, you paid £125 for someone to drop your saddle a bit for you and to fit some wedges you'd already bought? 😉

    bruneep
    Full Member

    😆 @ stevomcd

    yunki
    Free Member

    good basic information on their website
    cheers

    TooTall
    Free Member

    stevo – you missed out the bit where he confirmed 175mm cranks were the right ones for him as well.

    You don't want to make this sound like a snake oil transaction do you? 😀

    big_n_daft
    Free Member

    personnally I would expect a loy of setup/ position advice on a skills day as it's the rider balance on the bike used rather then a strict set of measuremens that are important

    epicsteve
    Free Member

    It does sound like £125 well spent – if you're the sort of person that regularily drops cash on bling but has no idea how to set a bike up… 🙄

    epicsteve
    Free Member

    personnally I would expect a loy of setup/ position advice on a skills day

    On the skills day I did (at Glentress) there was a quick check on bike set-up, but as no-one there was a total incompetent, there were no changes necessary.

    JoeNation
    Free Member

    If they didn't use motion capture I'd say it sounds like good guesswork to me. Great if it works for you, but not repeatable and definately not worth £125.

    But they do use motion capture, so it's money well spent if it works (which it seems to for you). Still probably a fair bit of guesswork though, as there's almost nothing in the scientific literature about cycling biomechanics (trust me, I've looked). In other words, how does he know what he's doing is right? Guesswork isn't good enough for this sort of thing, you need to know for sure. Unless he's writing a research paper, in which case he should have told you he was doing research and not charged you for the service.

    njee20
    Free Member

    I'm slightly concerned by their 'this is for road bikes, but we can do MTBs' thing, do they just apply exactly the same fit? I wouldn't want my MTB and road bikes to be the same shape!

    glenp
    Free Member

    Just guessing, but I think you'll be using the same legs to pedal the mtb as the road bike! So stuff like saddle height and the footbed set up (and crank length too) will cross over nicely.

    As for paying for the dropping the saddle a bit advice – you kinda missed that they knew to drop it, not raise it, and also how much!

    Onzadog
    Free Member

    Nice to see you can always rely on STW to give the normal range of responses. Yes, it is dynamic capture. That's what made the difference really. I know how to set up a bike (hence why everything else was right) but the difference between static setup and dynamic setup can be significant. He didn't just tell me to drop the saddle but with several tweaks, got the maximum and minimum knee angles (with a cunning bit of software that overlays on the video capture). It was this minimum and maximum angle that also confirmed the crank length which both he and I thought might be a smidge long when first looking at the clips. I had a good idea I was going to need the wedges so yes, I had them alreayd but he can supply them. It was a huge help with those to know how many would be needed each side.

    Bottom like, if it's something you've considered having done, I thought this guy was really good and worth a look. The wife is also considering having a session as well. If you're already perfect like 95% of forum posters on any matter, then clearly, don't bother yourselves with such fluff! I gave it a go because I'm not a middle ages, overweight, balding, self important IT manager, who knows everything about everything. (insert tongue in cheek smilie)

    I've no way of measuring the effects of this other than I feel stronger on the bike now and the gap between me and my riding buddies has grown a bit (in a good way for me).

    As glenp says, the saddle/pedal set up swaps from bike to bike. I had this set up done for my commuter and then had the set up copied to the mountain bike which obviously has less reach due to the nature of the use.

    It sounds good, but I'd like to see some proper scientific research rather than the anecdotes on their customer feedback page.
    Take a large number of riders of various abilities, measure their power output, divide them in to three groups without their knowledge, alter one groups position for a "better" fit, one for a "worse" fit and leave one the same. Measure their power output again and see who has improved or not.
    Come to think of it, I'd like to see some proper scientific research on everything from carbon handlebars to driveline efficiency of hub gears compared to derailleurs.

    njee20
    Free Member

    Just guessing, but I think you'll be using the same legs to pedal the mtb as the road bike! So stuff like saddle height and the footbed set up (and crank length too) will cross over nicely.

    But most people use shorter cranks on the road than the MTB. Are you saying that's wrong?

    Many people also use different shoes and pedals on the road, often with a lower stack height, so the saddle height isn't necessarily transferable either.

    It was obviously more the length type adjustments I was thinking of though. A friend of mine went for a bike fit, which was great, and they set him up 'right', but didn't take into account the fact the 'right' position caused him knee pain which he'd managed to negate by using a layback seatpost and what not.

    I definitely like the theory, and would be interested to see what they say, but I think there are certain elements where I'd take their advice with a pinch of salt.

    Don't forget the White Coat Effect when looking at those feedback comments.
    If someone who appears to know more about the subject than you tells you it's better, most people will agree with them.
    Most people will be reluctant to admit they have wasted £125 as well, so will convince themselves that it is better.

    cynic-al
    Free Member

    So do you get a set of measurements/specs that you can keep adn apply to other bikes, or do you have to NEVER move anything?

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    not all mountainbikers use longer cranks, singlespeeders used 180mm+, do riders 165mm or sometimes less.

    DH'ers dont pedal therefore dont need long cranks, singlespeeders need the longer cranks as they spend more time pedaling at a less than ideal frequency.

    as there's almost nothing in the scientific literature about cycling biomechanics (trust me, I've looked).

    Didn't look very hard did you? I've read a few and theres quite a few books out there on the subject which collate the data from various studies.

    Kitz_Chris
    Free Member

    as there's almost nothing in the scientific literature about cycling biomechanics (trust me, I've looked)

    Where have you looked? I just typed in 'cycling biomechanics' into PubMed and got 501 hits!

    scruff
    Free Member

    I cant see anywhere where it mentions owt about offroad-centric positioning, such as a saddle at Woods Height.

    Woody
    Free Member

    Onzadog

    Sounds like money well spent. £125 is nothing if it sorts out your knee problem and gives you a couple of extra gears on the ups?

    Out of interest, how much did you have to drop your saddle? I've always worked on the principle of 'heel resting flat on the pedal'. Is that still about right as long as your crank length is correct?

    Bushwacked
    Free Member

    Had a look at this site and I don't understand what makes them qualified to do this? How do you know this is valid theory put into practice? Yeah there are some links to further information but nothing which shows the proven benefits. Plus a lot of MTBing is done out of the saddle which totally alters the biomechanics

    I'm not saying this to be a troll but more because I want to understand as if there is proven scientific value in it them I would be interested.

    Without scientific evidence it's no better than homeopathy.

    njee20
    Free Member

    not all mountainbikers use longer cranks, singlespeeders used 180mm+, do riders 165mm or sometimes less.

    Who said they did? I said 'most' in that most MTBs come with 175s and most road bikes with 172.5s, so unless people ride particularly big/small bikes, they're likely to have smaller cranks on their road bikes! I know I do.

    Won't that also affect the saddle height? And isn't crank length related to your riding style, like SSers using longer to get more leverage? Therefore how can someone tell you what cranks to use?

    Onzadog
    Free Member

    It does make a bigger difference with the road bike than the mountain bike because of the more dynamic riding style. he didn't have a set of rigid formula and fit the rider to it, a lot was done with rider feedback. After the session he writes a report for you than includes all the measurements so you can replace or replicate the fit on another bike. It also shows the before and after angles and in my case, the knee tracking which was more linear after the fitting.

    He also takes into account, rider style, purpose and personal flexibility. For example, if you're pretty stoff and road to work at plodding pace, you don't need the same setup as a super flexible high output triathalete.

    Perhaps a chunk of this is trail and error with paying people and learning as you go. However, if nothing else, having someone there to operate the camera and run the software was worth it.

    I use the heel on the pedal with a straight leg set up method. However, what i didn't know is that my left leg is shorter (I always used the right to set things up) but also, because I'm really flexible, I was rocking my hips and using my ankles a lot more than I realised. I actually ended up dropping the saddle 28mm!!!!!!!!! I know, that sounds a hell of a lot. I thought it might be a little high but I found that staggering.

    As for those wanting scientific backup, yeah, it would be better with a five year study behind it and double blind testing, however, I still reckon something with accurage measurements and some common sense/experience is better than nothing. Even with what you read (like the book by Andy Purit) my saddle was still too high because I only ever checked it statically. As for my knee track, there's no way I could check that myself. There's no science to prove that a vertical line for the knee track is better than a wide oval but it makes sense and it feels better. It's also a lot quicker than added or removing shims based on trail and error with a bit of added knee pain.

    It's not perfect, but I think it was really useful and well worth the money (considering what we tend to spend on the bike anyway). Maybe others might find it useful, hence my post. I'm not connected to the guy and I'm getting nothing from this (other than he might stay in business when I might want another bike checked or some such). I see it fitting in the same box as coaching making you a better rider than spangly bits.

    As for the crank length issue, it's really checking that longer cranks don't close the knee up too much at the top of the stroke. I'd be fine on 170. However, it's good to know that 175 is unlikely to upset my knees by closing my legs up too much.

    njee20
    Free Member

    28mm!? Christ! You must have looked ridiculous on a bike before!

    The knee alignment thing I can see, but you can do that at most decent Spesh dealers and not pay £125!

    cynic-al
    Free Member

    Little expertese in working out someone's saddle height is 28mm too high!

    user-removed
    Free Member

    Woah! My saddle is a different height every time I ride – and it's up and down like a yo-yo all day if I'm at a trail centre. But I'm still quite quick 8)

    I just guestimate where it should be or stick it right down if I'm pointing downhill…

    Onzadog
    Free Member

    I know it sounds like a lot 28mm but it really didn't look that bad. Like I say, it was disguised by very flexible legs. The hips didn't rock so much as smoothy extend! i set it up originally by using the heel on the pedal technique. Seems my hips drop down like that quite naturally, that plus I point my toes at the lower end of the stroke as well.

    I'll conceed that there's little skill normally seeing that someone's saddle is too high if it's out by that much. The skill is in identifying that it's out by 28mm. The difference between qualative and quantative analysis!

    futonrivercrossing
    Free Member

    I always thought you setup saddle height to have a slight bend in the leg, with the pedal at its lowest position.

    Bushwacked
    Free Member

    Bit like having a skills session – its only when someone with some expertise looks at it can you reveal where you need to stop, start or change things to improve.

    I'd like to see skills sessions scientifically tested too.

    Bushwacked
    Free Member

    That'd be much easier than determining the phyisical damage wrong bike setup might cause and I say that from suffering a bad knee recently after altering my own setup

    firestarter
    Free Member

    out of interest do you lot that ride road and mtb have the same pedal to saddle top measurement after taking into account any shoe or pedal differences. Just ive recently dropped my saddle on the mtb and climb just as well but descend tricky stuff better. I only tried this after reading the inside leg 109% method and found my saddle was perhaps 18mm too high

    njee20
    Free Member

    that plus I point my toes at the lower end of the stroke as well.

    Did they tell you to correct that, or just set the bike up around that then? I'm the same as you, and you'll get far more control if you push your heels down, rather than dropping your saddle to compensate for having your toes down!

    HTTP404
    Free Member

    with the number of times people on here seem to change their bikes it would seem uneconomical to be refitted each and every time.

    njee20
    Free Member

    Guess that's why the print out of the 'ideal' dimensions is handy, just apply it to everything.

    Definitely think it's more applicable on the road still though.

Viewing 37 posts - 1 through 37 (of 37 total)

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