Saint brakes can pull -1G « Singletrack Forum

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Saint brakes can pull -1G

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Started 1 month ago by ooOOoo
Latest reply from cookeaa

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ooOOoo - Member

well, nearly....interesting brake test on bikeradar

Error #1 seems to be the y axis...should be m/s/s shouldn't it?

On the video here
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/video-preview-our-biggest-brake-test-ever--24920
though he goes on about "150N/m of force"
Assuming the brake lever is 10cm long, that would be 1500N of force, which I doubt I could achieve with one finger!
I'm assuming what he actually means is 150N, at the end of the lever, which sounds more realistic.

Anyway I remember trying them at fort william, and they were pretty pokey Anyone here had any memorable emergency braking moments on there Saints? I've got the original Saint's and they are nowhere near as good.

Posted 1 month ago #
wwaswas - Member

now if only I could find some mud that would give me 1G's worth of grip...

Posted 1 month ago #
Spankmonkey - Member

now with super powerful brakes I just dont see the point! I had tech V2's with vented rotors... they were stupidly powerful but they just make your wheels lock up and

loose grip!

I much prefer mid range power

Posted 1 month ago #
votchy - Member

Crikey, I have V2's with vented rotors and have had my retinas reattached due to their power and they come out bottom of the pile

Posted 1 month ago #
mikey74 - Member

I find my original Saints to be brilliant. I have used them for xc as well as the Whistler bike Park and never felt like I needed anything more powerful.

However, if I had to replace my Saints I'd probably go for the new Saints as I love the Shimano reliability (or maybe SLX).

Posted 1 month ago #
ctznsmith - Member

X2's are 'bottom' are they not...V2's are up near the top.

Doesn't that graph just show that in general most brakes will stop you relatively quickly?

Posted 1 month ago #
PeterPoddy - Member

I much prefer mid range power

I can honestly say I don't think it's possible to have too much power in you brakes. Anything else is just user error.

Posted 1 month ago #
mafiafish - Member

It's not quite 1 g though is it? (at least at 150N)

Posted 1 month ago #
tracknicko - Member

looks a bit like if you pull funn 'drop outs' hard, they give less power than if you pull them less hard!

errrrrrrr.

i hope not! maybe should do that test again eh lads?

Posted 1 month ago #
tails - Member

I have broke my face using saints (it may have been my fault) I use 160mm floating rotors and that is very strong, can't imagine the use for big 200mm plates, well maybe schladming.

Would like to try Xt.

Posted 1 month ago #
nickc - Member

All that graph seems to demonstrate is that i) most brakes are pretty similar, and ii) too much information on one graph renders it pretty useless.

Posted 1 month ago #
Spankmonkey - Member

Surley there comes a point where the wheels will lock out on any brake and if you pump the brakes to stop this happening wouldnt slightly less powerful brakes such as the M4's get the same result? ive never had a brake "not grip" due to lack of power, even on DH... (usually m4's) I guess what I am trying to ask is, if a brake starts to lock a wheel at 60% of its potential stopping power why do you need more power or the extra 40%.. if that makes sense? I found with the tech V2's that the addtional power was just never used, you get to 60/70% of the possible power but by then your either stopped or the wheels are locked up or your pumping the brake at 60% of its ability.... I will get me coat now

Posted 1 month ago #
votchy - Member

X2's are 'bottom' are they not...V2's are up near the top.

Doh, can't tell the difference between blood red and lipstick pink

Posted 1 month ago #
tails - Member

Where are the magura gustav they are supposed to be very strong.

Posted 1 month ago #
ooOOoo - Member

Sorry to hear about your face tails! I have XT and can confirm they haven't broken my face yet.
How strong are your index fingers people? can you pull 150N? Or can you lift 15Kg it?

Posted 1 month ago #
glenh - Member

Yes easy. I can do pull ups on 2 index fingers, so that's 350N each.

Posted 1 month ago #
schrickvr6 - Member

They are "orsum" I've got all saint on the big bike and XTR with just a saint front caliper on my Pyre (180/160).

I remember coming back from Cwmcarn along the canal probably doing 17-18mph and a dog ran out probably a metre in front of me and froze, I autograbbed 2 big handfulls of brake, did a big endo and cracked my nuts on the top tube in mid air, and stopped centimetres away. I thought the dog was going to be roadkill but the power of the Saint saved the day.

Posted 1 month ago #
tails - Member

Sorry to hear about your face tails!

Was my fault was trying stoppies like wade simmons does on the collective, the main difference was a lot of skill.

Posted 1 month ago #
ooOOoo - Member

Oooh check you out glenp! You're a light little guy, but a strong, light little guy

Posted 1 month ago #
ooOOoo - Member

"Saint saves dog" ...it's a good headline

Posted 1 month ago #
tracknicko - Member

because if you can lock the wheel at 60% potential, what percentage is it after an hour of downhill (say mega) maybe its then at 85% of its potential...

you might then be glad you hadnt lopped off the extra 40%.

im afraid that this test might not be entirely useful in the real world.

Posted 1 month ago #
Spankmonkey - Member

I guess I was refering to general riding around the uk and not the extremes of the mega

Posted 1 month ago #
thisisnotaspoon - Member

there's a video on youtube or similar of the magura test bed.

Its an old pair of bomber forks with a hub being driven off a big electric motor.

They run them at various levels of force/speed and see how long it takes the brakes to boil. Seem to remember reading that the pads usualy became ineffective long before fresh fluid would boil.

Although it did make me wonder if they could develop a perfectly beded in pad, the market to DH racers must be quite big, especialy in the winter where pads last just a few runs.

Posted 1 month ago #
tracknicko - Member

well for general uk xc riding discs arent required at all in terms of power IMO.

mud clearance, bent wheels, pad wear etc yes... but power. no.

Posted 1 month ago #
ooOOoo - Member

Good point, do you want to buy my old V-brakes then?

Here's the same test in the (UK relevant) wet

Posted 1 month ago #
tracknicko - Member

no cos i dont ride that much pure xc!

why is half that second test missing?

Posted 1 month ago #
Spankmonkey - Member

just to throw in a curve ball, surley disc rotor size is the most important factor and how effective they are to distribute heat? I once ran mono minis on a demo 8 with 203 rotors, worked a treat, didnt overheat and just enough power, ok the m4's with 203's was better, but the Tech V2's with vented rotors was just overkill, perhaps at the mega or a similar course they would have been perfect, just not round any 5-10 min decents in Wales. That said if I lived in BC I would prob choose V2's

Posted 1 month ago #
Doug - Member

Saints give enough power that you can one finger brake all the time without even needing to pull hard. It's amazing how much difference only having to apply gentle 1 finger pressure for even the most aggressive braking makes as regards to finger and hand fatigue and so how well you can brake or even hold onto the bars by the end of a day of heavy braking.

Agree new Saints are overkill for trail centres or rides with easier descents but for rides with lots of steep descents, Alpine trips and DH riding they are perfect.

What they also allow you to do is run smaller rotors for the same amount of power reducing the likelihood of a rock or root strike bending the rotor.

Posted 1 month ago #
cookeaa - Member

That graph tells you very little really are those lines the result of a single opperation per brake or several averaged out?

I notice they put a couple of airlines pointing at the caliper from the sides/behind, surely that makes it a less representative test as the airflow is not comparable to "real world conditions" did they attach any thermocouples to look for heat increases, did they look at opperation over repeated mixed hard/gentle opperation?

It's a graph with some lines but the variables are not really detailed so all in all it's pretty toss...

Posted 1 month ago #
RobS - Member

I used to run the original Saints on 200mm rotors front/rear. Bloody marvelous they were! Even with my not-so-slight frame you could pull a rolling stoppie without too much difficulty!

I just loved the sheer levels of power, control and the fact they just "worked". The only brakes I have ever had that I actually wish I still owned (sold them on the Patriot they were attached to several years ago now...)

I may have to get some again....

Posted 1 month ago #
kimbers - Member

my mono M4s (200 front 180 rear) were still working fine at the bottom of the mega and i had used them an awful lot coz im a pussy!
though i did have arm pump from hell!
had put fresh dot in them before i went out there

Posted 1 month ago #
ooOOoo - Member

cookeaa, they couldn't even label the graph correctly, so don't expect every variable to be thought of.

Posted 1 month ago #
CaptainBudget - Member

I don't think this has been done properly at all. Notice on the first graph the Avid Code is the weakest brake. This is rubbish, the Code sh!ts on the Tektros and Shimano Deores in terms of raw stopping power (which for some reason are actually pretty high). Notice that the Code then seems to double it's deceleration in the wet.

Anyone looking at new brakes probably ought to ignore these graphs. Cookeaa, you are right they have no relevance to the real world at all, and certainly not in lab conditions (how does a Juicy 3.5 have more power than a Code, even in lab conditions?).

Posted 1 month ago #
Dibbs - Member

Its a bit difficult to tell as there seem to be two grey lines, but is that XTR up there on a par with Saint?

Posted 1 month ago #
pypdjl - Member

I don't think this has been done properly at all.

Indeed! Given the variation in performance between multiple versions of the same brake, the effect of set-up, rotor size, pad compound, bedding in, and real conditions (ie mud), etc., you'd have to be hopelessly optimistic to place any faith in their results.

Posted 1 month ago #
ooOOoo - Member

Watch the video, he mentions some of those things.
Still more scientific than anything done by ST isn't it?

Posted 1 month ago #
pypdjl - Member

No, it's pseudo-scientific. No error bars on the graphs, not repeated using more than one of the same brake so no consideration of set-up issues, of questionable relevance to actual usage on a bike.

Posted 1 month ago #
Dirtynap - Member

Can't read the dam graphs. Apart from teh big red line at the bottom of the dry graph which says avod codes are junk in the dry. Which is odd, as they rearrange me face on my DH bike.

Posted 1 month ago #
jim the saint - Member

The testing was done by Fibrax in Wrexham. This is the same company that sold hydraulic brake hoses that would explode under braking pressure.

Posted 1 month ago #
Doug - Member

The testing was done by Fibrax in Wrexham. This is the same company that sold hydraulic brake hoses that would explode under braking pressure.

Rumour has it those hoses were 'export' only.

Posted 1 month ago #