[Closed] Scottish avalanche tragedy- irresponsible behaviour?

Sad indeed.

I'm sure it's not that simple

It's not. The full facts are not given in the bbc article. Having lost a good friend who was a very respected climber its not as simple as you paint it.

B

[i]I dunno. I'm sure it's not that simple, but it seems like yet another group of stupid idiots who think they are harder than nature.[/i]

What you mean like smokers, drinkers, people that don't exercise enough, people who it crap food. You mean like those stupid idiots that make up the majority of the population in denial of nature, or some other special sort of stupid idiot?

Given that the SAIS forecast was 'considerable' then I guess you could call it irresponsible, then again, maybe they did check the forecast and amended their route, and still got caught out?

Still don't really know the circumstances though. 'Climbing' is quite a general term - don't know whether they were doing any rope work and got caught, or whether they were just bimbling around up there.

RIP to these chaps.

IanMunro- the people you speak of don't tend to endanger the lives of others, though (let's not get into the argument of passive smoking etc). And that's completely different.

I mean no disrespect, and tragic accidents can happen, despite every precaution being taken.

But to go out in an area known for extremely hazardous conditions, in the worst possible weather, after days of heavy snowfall, and with avalanche warnings, just smacks or extreme recklessness, I'm afraid.

A responsible person would weigh up the factors, espeshly the potential for any risk to others, and make a decision based on that. How, with all the information available, they still felt it was ok to go up the mountain, I don't know.

Stupid maybe for getting it wrong.
Good chance although just an educated guess on my behalf.... were then in Great Gully ? Renowned avavlanche spot. The BBC Curved ridge is a Red Herring.
Irresponsible, hell no. Just doing what they enjoyed. I take it the original poster can't be a cyclist.

Rudeboy. I do not think you should not spout off about something you clearly have little knowledge of, on a public forum, when people have lost their lives.

Many hundreds of people were out in the Scottish hills today without incident (as I may well have been if I was in the area). The people involved may have made a poor choice of route for whatever reason, but you should not comment on them without knowing the full details(which no one who was not there at the time would know).

Call me a Soft Townie

Conditions can turn nasty up here really quickly. Many people don't appreciate how short a time it takes to die if you get it wrong.

I suppose it's a bit like cycling deep into the mountains wearing/carrying just cycling gear.

Sad it is, but bruneep is right, its never as simple as it may seem, I've been climbing in the Scottish hills for over 25 years, summer and winter, mostly if you know what you're upto you can assess and deal with most of the risks you face, but sometimes you get it wrong (human after-all) and sometimes sh*t happens...

Lets face it, same goes for mountainbiking, if it didnt carry some risk you wouldn't do it... and no matter how good you are sometimes sh*t happens.....

Avalanche category 3 - considerable - not one that would really put a lot of climbers off in my experience.

The route - the main walkers path/tourist route whatever you want to call it.

Think of it as the equivalent of going round GT blue route on a frosty day, falling off on a patch of ice and killing yourself.

I don't think how quick conditions turning is the issue. The vast majority of people that I've met whilst up in the hills are fully prepared for bad conditions, and fully aware of how quick weather changes. This is to do with either not reading the forecast, ignoring it, or just being caught out and unlucky.

Aye - everyone should just stay indoors.

I understand that attitude RudeBoy - I also find climbing types to be arrogant ****s more often than I do MTBers (just for example).

And as a sometime hillwalker I'd be mortally embarrassed if I had to be rescued by helicopter.

But MTBing can be quite a dangerous hobby too, and taking a spill somewhere remote and rocky could have nasty consequences and necessitate a mountain rescue team coming out.

More bikers than walkers are probably inadequately dressed/prepared too (at a guess), but perhaps that's a different debate.

Avalanche Risk of 3 considerable with the worst being on NW slopes forecast. I would go out on any slope other than NW on such a day. The routes on BEV tend to be on the E to SE side of the hill so there should not be a great problem. Until we know where they were climbing it is difficult to form an opinion as to their competence.
No one in our mountaineering club is proud of having a "Big Yellow Taxi Ride" we take the pish un-mercifully if they do. I would suggest anyone who boasts of being rescued is incompetent and not "rock hard".

Category 3... I wouldnt think twice about going out at that... 5 would probably stop me!!!

One point is they died doing something they loved, not too bad a way to go.

Sandwich - they were on the tourist route. Not a climb, not even a scramble.

Old Chinese saying
"It is better to live one day as a Tiger than 10000 days as a sheep"

[i]Call me a Soft Townie[/i]

You are soft townie with a mouth bigger than his brain.

I have actually mentioned that "I'm sure it's not that simple", btw, folks. I make no claim to being an expert in this field. And I notice that my 'ignorance' in this area is being pointed out to me quite pointedly...

So I'll leave it to the 'experts' to comment:

John Grieve, Glencoe Mountain Rescue team leader, said: "We were told that there were three buried, so began our search and recovered three bodies."

He added: “It didn’t look good at the time. It is tragic that this happens on our mountains, but it is all too common.”

The website warned: “Off-piste and back-country skiing and travel should only be carried out by experienced persons able to evaluate avalanche hazard.”

Avalanche expert Henry Schniewind said the risk level was such that a natural avalanche was unlikely but it could have been triggered by a single person.

"It's not all that unreasonable to go out skiing or mountaineering on an avalanche rating of category three," he said.

Mr Schniewind described avalanches as 'vicious beasts' that kill between 20 and 25% per cent of the people that are taken in them.

He said people have about 15 minutes to live if they become trapped under the snow.

'The best way to survive is to have your friends and companions trained up in getting you out and vice versa.'

From [url= http://www.****/news/article-1127171/Three-climbers-ignored-danger-warnings-killed-avalanche-Scottish-Highlands.html ]our favourite newspaper.[/url]

I had hoped for some intelligent responses, but if people want to slag me off, call me a 'prat', and suggest that 'you don't know what you're talking about', then I think that just displays the arrogant and foolish attitude that leads to such tragedies occuring.

Thanks for reinforcing my opinions.

And as a sometime hillwalker I'd be mortally embarrassed if I had to be rescued by helicopter.

What a stupid statement! Guess you never called the parrafin budgie out then? I have, and trust me, its no embarrassment, its a relief - it saved my mates life and I and he are forever indebted.

I am waiting for someone more informed than BBC scaremongering reporter and wind up mtb forum before I judge. I am up there this week for a job interview with a respected outdoor center - they may well have a better informed view.

The website warned: “Off-piste and back-country skiing and travel should only be carried out by experienced persons able to evaluate avalanche hazard.”

That's a bit sensationalist - it should apply to all travel, at any time, on snow-covered terrain.

As others have said, I wouldn't think twice about going out in "Considerable" avalanche risk conditions. In fact, "Considerable" is pretty much the normal state of the hills for most of the winter.

Typically out here (French Alps) we can expect the risk to be 4 ("High") for 1-2 days following a heavy snowfall (or moderate snowfall+wind), then 3 for a week or so, then down to 2 if we haven't had any more snow by that time. If you don't go off-piste skiing/boarding in level 3 conditions, you'll never go (and you'll certainly never get fresh tracks!).

What a stupid statement! Guess you never called the parrafin budgie out then? I have, and trust me, its no embarrassment, its a relief - it saved my mates life and I and he are forever indebted.

OK, point taken, what I meant was "if I had to be rescued by helicopter because of my own stupidity or unpreparedness in poor weather".

Maybe others wouldn't, but I'd feel like I'd cocked-up.

David Campbell, manager at Glencoe Ski Centre, said his staff had helped with the search effort.

One of his employees is a member of Glencoe Mountain Rescue Team, while another, who was skiing in the area, also joined in the rescue operation.

Mr Campbell described the avalanche as a "really major incident".

He warned that Buchaille Etive Mhor was not an area where inexperienced climbers should venture.

"It's a well known area for climbers, but it's not an area for inexperienced climbers," Mr Campbell said.

From [url= http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/news/display.var.2484314.0.avalanche_hits_highlands.php ]here.[/url]

This is similar to the OMM 'incident' a few months ago though, the media stir it up into a massively overhyped story. There were thousands of people out enjoying themselves all over Scotland on a winter weekend, you won't hear about all the ones who had a great day out in the snow you hear about the three that tragically died. Until you know the full story you can't comment - were they experienced/prepared mountaineers or were they a bunch of tourists in jeans and trainers?

Accidents happen to even the best prepared people as I can vouch for having had to call out Mountain Rescue once in the past and having been helicoptered off a mountain myself. You never realise until it happens just how close you can be to a very serious accident.

So far the only thing this incident has demonstrated is not about irresponsibility/stupidity in the mountains (not enough detail yet), it's shown yet again just how good Mountain Rescue and the Armed Forces are and it may well mean a few more £ in donations to them next time you're in a position to do that.

Rudeboy, I know what you're getting at, but speak to the guys who actually work in Mountain Rescue and they'll tell you that they don't have any problem at all with folk going out in extreme conditions. They do have problems with folk who are ill-equipped or inexperienced, but not folk in general who are sometimes just unlucky. As for the inexperienced folk, there are always plenty of experienced people happy to take them along.

The fact that two groups were caught in this avalanche suggests that it was mainly bad luck, though it's difficult to know given the sensationalist angles taken by the media (remember that fell-running thing a while back?).

I know a lot of folk who go out in those conditions, and 99% of them weigh up all the risks and do give a lot of thought, and respect, to the Mountain Rescue teams. Risk is part of life, and sadly there are far too many folk determined to remove it.

Two of my mates Sandy and Des are members of the Glencoe Mountain Rescue Team and never slag off anyone for going into the mountains in winter if they have prepared well,have the right gear,experience and are sensible about the weather.All too often you get the "tourists" usually from Universities down south who have booked their week up the Coe and are determined to climb something no matter what.When the weather is looking at all dodgy,most of the experienced climbers and locals can be found in the Clachaig Inn and all they can do is offer advice but would never try and enforce it.The danger of winter climbing has been debated for years and the same old statement always comes out as to why cant they just wait for the summer and some good weather,but as someone who has climber regularly in the French alps and Italian Dolomites,there is nowhere better than Gods own country in winter,and if you have to ask you will never know.

Actually, kennyp, that's one of the most sensible responses so far. And perhaps the first to appreciate that my concerns lie with those who have to try and get others out of trouble; people who, had they perhaps been more sensible/used better judgement/experience in assessing the risks/their own ability to survive potential hazardous conditions, may have decided on another, safer route, or not to have gone to such a clearly dangerous place.

Sometimes, you gotta take risks; all part of pushing yourself/human endeavour.

But think about others you may put in danger, before going out on your (Ego?) trip.

And about those who you may leave behind.

Climbers, walkers whom ever are no different to others when it comes to finding fullfilment in the great outdoors, it has it's risks, calculated ones. Climbers are no more foolhardy, they just live closer to the edge, accidents happen and such is life, people die falling out of bed.

What i would say to all the naysayers who spout sactimonious risk averse bull is you have never lived and never will, whether these guys died doing something with there eyes fully open i will never know, but at least it was something that gave them something that little bit special.

Climbing mountains, battling the elements in an enviroment far removed from the local megamall is exactly why people head out into the hills and to some extent the unknown, becuase when they return to the 9 to 5 they feel so very alive.

The climbers I know, some of them professionals right at the top of the sport, are the most risk aware people I know.

there is nowhere on earth like God`s own country in winter, and if you have to ask you will never know.

Never been there, but I don't think I have to ask:

[img] [/img]

Yes, I do 'get it'. I can only imagine how incredible it must be.

Even more reason to want to survive, to see it again.

Accidents happen, especially when you actually live your life and not rot to death on the sofa. You don't have to look for someone to blame. And yes, you are a big soft townie.

Looks gnarly doesn't it.

The thing is, the avalanche happened on the easiest route on the mountain.

This picture shows the area that was avalanched.
[img] [/img]

Doesn't look quite so bad does it...

And yes, you are a big soft townie.

I resent that.

I'm only 5'4 1/2"...

I'll just go back to my nice, safe, quiet, boring life, and leave all you hard men to it.

Old coffin dodgers on the Eiger[url= http://www.kodakgallery.eu.com/Slideshow.jsp?Uc=ua4t2ml.byiq7d0t&Uy=ri7hrq&Upost_signin=Slideshow.jsp%3Fmode%3Dfromshare&Ux=0&UV=592448233161_3046013960233&localeid=en_GB_EURO&mode=fromshare&conn_speed=1 ]Photies[/url]

As an ex rescue team member of several years service in the Lakes it was easy to differentiate those who were genuinely unlucky as opposed to those who were caught lacking due to inexperience or being ill prepared. We had on average almost 65 callouts a year and I didn't begrudge well prepared and informed people managing the risks but just being caught out. I had more contempt for folk who were just plain dumb about risk and how to manage in deteriorating circumstances. Have an adventure and get away with it on a summers day that goes bad, but surely the workable margin for error and consequence decreases in poor conditions and are you on top of your game in dealing with it?

I applaud people for having a go, getting out and pushing themselves. Genuine accidents still happen however. If we dont step into the margins and learn, how do we ever develop the skills to cope? There is only so much you can learn from a book but in this environment theory will only take folk so far.....

As for this case, I cant add anything, I don't have all the info. Looking in and being critical is too easy... especially from my living room reading the article...

Like some others here it was mountaineering that led me into mountain biking. I've had the misfortune to be airlifted off the hill when a climbing buddy pulled a block onto himself at the top of a chimney in the Cuillin. I was at the bottom of the rope and had to move to avoid the block. JET got away with a tib and fib at right angles. I've also had been on the other side, in a volunteer MRT.

Today, I did a high(ish) mountain pass (~500m) solo on a bike. I had to walk quite a bit on the plateau because of drifted snow, it was bitter cold and I smacked my chest off a rock on the descent when I slid out on sheet ice. I was committed as my wife had dropeed me on the north side and I was heading for home. I guess that makes me irresponsible.

Have an adventure and get away with it on a summers day that goes bad, but surely the workable margin for error and consequence decreases in poor conditions and are you on top of your game in dealing with it?

3 people dead, and the lives of several others risked.

I'd say not...

Middle of Jan, extremely severe weather conditions, considerable avalanche risk...

If they'd stayed in their living rooms, they'd still be alive.

Risks were obviously too great for them, as has been proven. Poor judgement.

Irresponsible.

Risks were obviously too great for them, as has been proven. Poor judgement.

"...my concerns lie with those who [b]have [/b]to try and get others out of trouble..."

They're volunteers, Fred, if it's the MRTs you're referring to. If I were you I'd just give up on this thread because you fundamentally misunderstand what you're talking about.

Rudeboy - how were the lives of those called out to help risked? The area had just been avalanched remember. Hardly liable to avalanche again now was it.

It should also be remembered that the rescuers were in the area on excercise too....

rudeboy wrote
Risks were obviously too great for them, as has been proven. Poor judgement.

did you walk anywhere in london today.
you could have been run over, mugged and stabbed, blown up possibly.
would you have assesed the risk 1st.

no poor judgement involved, just bad luck.

I really can't believe I'm reading this thread on an MTB site. We all take risks. We all do things to keep us ticking over. MTBing is dangerous. Just different from climbing a mountain. I've been carried down a mountain after breaking my leg on a bike. Nobody told me off for that. I know I could well be killed or seriously injured when out biking, but I don't give a **** as it's what I want to do and there are far worse things I could be doing that would have a negative impact on our society.

You are such a hypocrite.

To be fair the area where the incident happened is notoriously avalanche prone and is probably the most dangerous area in the UK for avalanches.

Unfortunately, not a lot of people know that. The ones that do would find much more interesting ways of approaching the mountain.

but it seems like yet another group of stupid idiots who think they are harder than nature.

wind your neck in

you really haven't got a clue what happened today

@Rudeboy: Hindsight would be a wonderful thing, if it didn't come too late.

Life is a risk.

Just had to re-register for the forum to add to those of you condemning Rudeboy for sheer ignorance. I doubt it will be worthwhile, as it seems that Rudeboy doesn't care that he is both ignorant and insensitive (both of the circumstances of this particular case and of anything to do with mountains in winter more generally).

Unless anyone was out on the hill today, took part in the rescue or has heard from someone who was, [b]and[/b] knows the party(ies) involved, it wouldn't be wise to make any kind of assessment. 3 deaths in the mountains are, as I think you get at in the first post, a tragedy for any number of people involved. Idle speculation as to the responsibility, motives and ethics of those involved in this incident from your cozy desktop is pretty pathetic, given the lack of understanding you show.

Rudeboy: you (and everyone else reading this from the media) has NO idea of what happened out there today so less of the assumption and holier than thou attitude.

EDIT: beaten to it by 4 seconds! Good post crouch-potato

If they'd stayed in their living rooms, they'd still be alive.

people do die in their homes, there were 233 fire deaths in the home in 2006 in Englandshire,

don't see you complaining about those people who put others at risk trying to save them.

Feh

King

Hell.

One last time...

People take risks. Ok. Granted, it's part of life, and our Human Nature. Most risk-taking behaviour, however, would also involve some degree of risk-assessment and judgement, as to wether it was worth it or not. you could argue that most things we do involve a certain amount of risk. Opening a can of beans, pouring a kettle, stroking a dog, etc etc...

Some of us like to do hings that others might consider too risky; mountain-biking, climbing, canoeing, motor-racing, gambling, injecting Class A drugs, Tube Surfing, etc, etc...

Soem activities are relatively low-risk, others, higher.

Mountain-biking; medium risk?

Going up the side of a mountain in Scotland, in January, when there is a great risk of avalanche- high risk, no?

Smee, who appears to know and understand the area, says that it is "notoriously avalanche prone and is probably the most dangerous area in the UK for avalanches"

And, as others who have never even met me, and know bugger all about me, have clearly established, I know nothing about mountainous areas or conditions.

But I'd hazard a guess that going out in such conditions carries perhaps a far greater risk than during warmer, calm weather. No? Anyone want to argue that?

Ok.

Several 'experts' have stated that conditions were extremely bad. And that those without sufficient equipment/skills/experience etc, should really not be venturing out in such conditions.

9 people were caught up in the avalanche. These were not freak, unexpected weather conditions, such as at the OMM, but completely expected, and in fact very common, at this time of year.

Reason enough, perhaps, to maybe give that particular route a miss? Maybe try something slightly less risky?

Now, I have tried to find out as much info as possible, and accept I have no knowledge of the area concerned. But from what I can gather, it does seem somewhat foolish for anyone but the most experienced and hardened mountaineer, to be out on the mountain today. Would you all not agree?

And if you stop trying to 'prove RudeBoy wrong because you sometimes get wound up by him' for just a moment, would you not also agree, that there are some foolish people out there? People who think they are tougher, cleverer, harder than they actually are?

In most cases like this, it has transpired that those who get into trouble, in similar circumstances, have been inexperienced/ill-equipped/foolhardy.

The facts are; they must have been inexperienced/ill-equipped/foolhardy, as they all got into serious trouble. I don't think even the most cantankerous of any of you can deny that.

Because someone who was sufficiently experienced/properly equipped/sensible, would not have got into trouble, barring any unseen circumstances occurring. I dare say there have been climbers who have done more extreme stuff, today, and survived.

I have, believe it or not, met many outdoor adventure types. I have enjoyed such activities as mountain climbing, abseiling, white water canoeing, cross-country skiing, and been in extremes of temperature from -30ºC, to well over 100ºF. Im sure many people can wave their willies a lot more than me, when it comes to 'extreme sports'. but doing such activities has taught me to respect and never underestimate the environment I'm in. And to not take risks beyond the point of a reasonable chance of survival.

As for living in London, well, I've been beaten up several times, been stabbed and had a gun pointed in me face. Hasn't put me off going out of my front door, I must say.

As for having an opinion on something, well, yes, I do. And? What, like none of you do?

But thanks for paying attention.

XX

but did you do a risk assesmant prior..... 😆

LOL!

No, silly me!

Ah, come on, I'm sure you lot know what I'm getting at.

Just want to make it clear, I mean no disrespect for those who have tragically lost their lives, or any towards their families and friends. I have lost friends to 'misadventure'. Human life is precious, and fragile.

I'm not going to comment on this incident as I don't know the facts (not that it seems to put off many people here), but I find it ironic that the British media frequently spouts off about "'elf and safety being out of control" and as soon as anyone gets hurt doing an activity they don't understand goes on about irresponsible actions putting lives at risk.

and as soon as anyone gets hurt doing an activity they don't understand goes on about irresponsible actions putting lives at risk.

Maybe they shouldn't do activities they don't understand, then, and then maybe they wouldn't get hurt.

Smee

You Scottish?

Look you are either a troll or extremely igonarant of the facts, a few points - climbing/ hill walking is not an "extreme sport" its a pastime/hobby, whether or not these climbers/hill walkers were ill equipped is irelevant and not the issue i am sure, they were involved in an avalanche (category 3 conditions, not particularly high if you are carefull, it is very subjective as conditions can change hourly, the assesment is made the day before etc). this area is notorious because it is a large bowl that funnels into a gorge, there have been fatalities very low in the corrie here, to a group of tourists only ambling into the lower corrie, a very tragic accident.

This is one of the most frequented ascent/descent routes on the mountain, climbers/walkers have to use there own judgement when assesing conditions under foot, sais warnings help but are not conclusive as conditions do change.

You are so wide of the mark, show a little respect to those involved.

Eldridge - yes. Why?

Smee

fibber

he's ninjanese

I know this areas better than most. I spent several months building the path that winds its way up that coire.

Rudeboy the UK Climbing forum suggests they were on the way down and made a poor decision, Confirmed by some MRT types who were there. They had finished climbing for the day.
It was two separate parties who appear to have been caught in the same avalanche. As stated above experienced mountaineers can cope with the conditions in Glencoe today but they tend to relaxe after finishing the "hard bit" and sometimes forget that the concentration needs to be maintained until the car is reached.

Then, to be fair, you should alert our correspondents to the long-standing Scottish Mountaineering practice of trying to confound the English by deliberate understatement of difficulty in grade-descriptions, guide books etc

The "Scottish Diff" and "Scottish Severe" of climbing are long standing sources of amusement

Applicable in this case is the traditional and often misleading Scots use of "Tourist Route" for the "easiest way up e.g the tourist route on Sgurr nan Gillean on Skye, which as you probably know can hardly be described as a pedestrian route!

That area of the Buachaille may be, as you say "probably the most dangerous area in the UK for avalanches", but Scots refer to it as the tourist route!
Obviously given the time of year, weather and location, this was a serious mountaineering expedition which just got unlucky.

It only takes a bathtub full of snow to bury you!

Changing tack slightly (since it's pointless discussing the actual risk with people who clearly know nothing about snow/avalanches). One thing that does p*ss me off is that climbers (particularly Scottish winter climbers) consistently reject carrying avalanche safety equivalent, such as the transceiver, shovel & probe which are de rigeur for off-piste skiers/boarders. Never figured out why.

Because if you carry everything including the kitchen sink, you would never be off the hill before last orders, certainly not practical when doing technical routes, there is way to much hardware to carry as it is. I am speeking as someone who in a pastlife spent ten yrs living in the area obssesing over icy things.

One thing to remember, before the Highlands became a playground for wealthy weekend warriors, people lived in those remote areas, and they walked through all those passes.

I will add a drunken perspective to this thread 😉

Everyone has to go sometime, better to go doing something you enjoy I say. Winter mountaineering is the one thing I've done in my life where I've truly known what it is to be alive. Taking risks is a good thing.

I'm suprised this thread hasn't already led onto biking and the helmet vs non-helmet arguement 😉 Same thing in my opinion, risk analysis, blah.

And yes I have great respect for the volunteer guys that rescue people of these lovely mountains, but hey, that's the reason they apply, they love the mountains, they love the challenges.

When I've been out in the hills I always call home when I am back at the car - I reckon that the most risky/daogerous part of the day is just beginning.

And, for gods sake, will some people stop going on about people that are not properly equipt to be out in such conditions. The vast majority are very well prepared.

"3 mountaineers were caught in a slab avalanche today in Glencoe Scotland. They were swept 500 feet from a cornice scarp on the normal ascent route of the mountain Buachaille Etive. All 3 were in cardiac arrest. 2 were dug out by companions and one was located by spot probe."

This guy was carrying a spot probe, which is more than what most mountaineers would carry. If you're the sort of guy that carries something like this, then more than likely you're fairly switched on.

In this case it looks like they got unlucky. Once again, RIP.

Well, I never would have known STW was so full of people expert on extreme avalanche conditions...

Get over yourselves; many of you lot would sh1t yourselves walking through the housing estate I live on.

Rudeboy the UK Climbing forum suggests they were on the way down and made a poor decision

Wasn't that what I said right at the very beginning?

Ah well. Maybe others will learn from their mistakes.

rudeboy - you're clearly out of your depth on this one. give it up.

'Clearly out of your depth'.

Yeah, course I am.

Stop, for a second, and consider the irony of that statement.

Cat 3 avalanche risk FFS that is not bad it does only drop to 2 when there is no snow.

I would have made an assessment on the way in, the way up and all through the day but some days things go wrong even the most prepared get caught out by just one minute. An area as small as your garden could avalanche and kill you, just one small area of snow on a slope that you couldn't see. It's part of the risk that is always present.

I'm sat here in Oz reading this as there is more sightings of the great white that nabbed a fisherman at christmas, everybody is still in the water and nobody was calling the guy who got killed stupid or irresponsible. Just he died doing something he loved somewhere he was at home.

rudeboy, your posts in this thread are the most annoying i've read on here in a while.

That corrie is the "normal" route for walking up the mountain. But the top is a bit steeper and has down-sloping rock that ices up. Windslab accumulations at the tops of rocky corries/gullys can be particularly unstable. But the depth and coherence of slab depends on the wind direction and strength when it falls and what's underneath so it's difficult to assess without actually going up there.
Avalanches are sneaky things and the risks can be very localised. Sometimes, stepping/skiing one metre to the left is safe and one metre to the right sets one off. Cat3 is not unusually high and in 99/100 situations you'll probably get away with it and call it "good judgement". Ergo: winter hillwalking/climbing is inherently dangerous, which is why it's fun.
I'm always very sad when adventurous folk get killed. Regarding the rescuers: they are volunteers, the most experienced climbers in the area and know the score. You'll find them climbing similar rock, snow and ice on their days off. God bless them all.

I've broken a leg, on high remote mountains in full winter conditions. Think I might have more experience of winter mountaineering and MRT callouts than our city dwelling OP.

With the greatest respect to Fred, he's talking a complete load of*******, but not for the first (nor I suspect the last) time.

anyone else been avalached in scotland cos i have so i guess i must be reckless and lucky but thats why i like mountains biking and climbing off piste sking

Rudeboy/fred

Take it easy. The new forum has heralded a new start for many previous forum users and that includes you. It was constant posts of this nature that ended up getting out of hand that resulted in you getting a LOT of moderator attention. While I don't think you are deliberately trolling you are starting on a path that is going to end as it did last time if you don't curb your posts and your opinions. This is not a warning as such, it is genuinely meant as advice.. Think BEFORE you press the 'send post' button about what the likely reaction is to your comments.

OK, I'll leave it there, as many people have misunderstood what I was trying to get at.

I'm not suggesting that anyone should not enjoy all sorts of outdoor activities, some of which involve a certain amount of risk. Like mountain biking. And mountaineering. But everyone would surely agree, better to be prepared, have the right kit, be aware of danger, etc.

Every winter, we see reports of this type of tragedy. And as I said before, very often, the reason that things have ended in tragedy is because people have just gone beyond the limits of safety, without being equipped and prepared for the worst. I appreciate there are accidents, which cannot be foreseen. But others here have agreed, that there are a small number of people who are reckless and stupid, and who's ill-judged actions put their own, and sometimes others, lives at risk.

So when I speak of responsibility, I am talking about the need to balance the desire for adventure, with the need to preserve life and safety, and to minimise risk to others. And, to be able to enjoy your chosen activity, and still be around for your family and friends. I would be all for anyone I love, to go and enjoy themselves in whatever activity they wanted, but I would also want them to still be around.

Yeah but the fact is that you weren't there and you don't know whether they did do anything particularly reckless, or were just unlucky, and damning people who died while out enjoying the hills in winter is pretty unpleasant behaviour in my book.

News from The Scotland on Sunday from a member of GMRT. [url= http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/scotland/Rescuer-tells-of-horror-as.4911121.jp ]Tragic Accident.[/url]