[Closed] So, Mancunian type people......

sounds great! Price is "competitive" too. Compared to all of the other national ID card schemes out there er...oh.
Anyway, a government survey says 60% of us want ID cards. Or rather they asked something like "do you want increased protection against criminals, illegal immigrants and terrorists?"

Like we rushed to embrace conjestion charging.

no.
just no.

Just been reading it, and figured there would be something here.

Time for Manchester to stop its fat complacency and get back to its roots of Peterloo, the Repeal of the Corn Laws and Fred Engels... and tell them to f*** off.

And don't even start me on the "if you've done nothing wrong, you've nothing to fear" nonsense....

"ID cards will deliver real benefits to everyone, including increased protection against criminals, illegal immigrants and terrorists," the home secretary said." erm.... really ?

The Torys must rub their hands with glee when this type of thing gets announced.

It's like a sort of referendum in reverse. And as doing nothing is what most people do best, it's likely to be an outstanding success for the no camp.

Anyone over 16 in the city with a UK passport

So thats most of the Labour supporters out.

No. Just like the Manchester congestion tax, I wont be investing into another crackpot scheme.

Including increased protection against criminals

Most of the crime committed (I bet) is by people who dont carry any type/sort of ID on them in the first place to avoid identification.

Its to generate more jobs/industry within the public/private initiatives. FAIL.

No, ta.

Like voting, but seems complaceny will do just as well in this instance. Sadly.

volunteer to pay £30 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆

I'd rather spend £60 on a NUS card at least that gets you 10% off at Harry Halls.

Silly labour twunts.

'competitive' against what? i thought competitive meant that there was more than one choice or have the government forgotten to tell us something, again. Waste of time, waste of money and it won't stop anything.

I'm sure all the terrorists/illegal immigrants/benefit fraudsters are rushing to sign up.

The most hair-brained waste of public money, on an epic scale, yet devised by man. And god knows.... with this bunch of half-wits, thats a hotly contested mantle

So, if we were to take STW as a snapshot of the UK (Hardly scientific, I know!) then it could be said that ID cards are as popular as a fart in a sauna.

I shall be getting a card as soon as possible as I have nothing to hide. Can't wait till they are needed at all times. Need one to vote, use the health service, travel in and out of uk, claim at dss etc. Sooner the better, have in lots of countries no problems. If you get stopped by the bobbies they could tell who you are straight away, if not then it's of to the clink.

as I have nothing to hide

Yet....

What countries have them?

Yet? it all sounds to me as if you guys have things to hide.

What countries have them?

The peoples Republic of Mancunia apparently. Have we replaced the Scottish as *ing guinea pigs now they've got devolution then?

Lets have a *ing revolution!!!!

France has em.

mt. The only way the police can tell if you are who you say you are with an id card is if it is a legal requirement to carry it at all times, if you don't carry it what are they going to do frogmarch you home so you can show it to them, meanwhile someone else gets assaulted, robbed etc and there's no coppers around to help the victim because they are all waiting for people to produce their i.d cards which they forgot to take with them when nipping out to the shop for a pint of milk. Or are they going to fine us for not having them on our person this will take up more court time when people don't pay within the alloted 14 day avoid court action threat's. Fwiw i already have three types of photo i.d a driving license, a digital tachograph card and a uk passport. Why the f$£k do i need another?

France has em

Didn't the Vichy government introduce them in order to identify suitable candidates for 'special treatment'?

Well if it was the law to have em at all time what would the problem be. People remember there money and credit cards for nipping out to the shops so taking your id card cannot be that hard. If you want the bobbies to defend us from crime then we need to play our part by carrying an id card whats the issue? Now give me facts not paranoid ramblings.

They have an ID card in france, but people dont carry them around with them. They use them as passports in the EU and find it odd to have to use a passport to come here.

ID cards are just a step towards a database with everything on so they can use technology to follow your every transaction and move. Your tracked on the net, tracked as you pay for stuff and tracked as you use public transport and walk the streets. Wont stop crime, but they will have a massive trail of electronic evidence to follow you with.

How long before the database its stored on gets left on the train or lost in the post or hacked ?

mt, here's one fact for you - They'll cost a chuffing fortune and achieve very little. In the current economic situation, and with our national debt at shameful levels, I reckon that's enough of a reason!

Next time I fancy committing a crime I will do it with a stolen ID card.

it all sounds to me as if you guys have things to hide.

The Jews in Germany had nothing to "hide". But then the state introduced Jewish as being a "crime" (in essence).

So, for people who one minute weren't actually criminals, then next they found themselves the subject of the Final Solution.

This is an extreme example, I agree, but just because a state appears benevolent, that does not mean it will continue to be so.

If, by your analogy mt, you have nothing to hide, presumably you won't have a problem with a policeman listening to your every phonecall and following you at 10 paces wherever you go.

You may say it is is paranoia, and to an extent it is. But, the suggestion that if I have nothing to hide, then I have nothing to fear is a very dangerous one. This way tyranny lies....

Apologies for rude word.....(Mods, please feel free to remove if need be)

[img] [/img]

Not paranoid ramblings. i want the police to defend us from crime but spending £5 billion on a computer system and some bits of plastic with a picture on won't do it. I'd rather they spent the £5 billion putting more police on the street's. Beside's the government's history of setting up I.T systems and databases, running them and not losing the information on them does not make me confident in their abilities to do this. If anything it will just give the fraudsters another way to make money by selling fake id.

As it happens I don't have a problem with the cops listening to what I'm upto as the chances of that are slim because I'm not involved in things that I should not. I also believe that a good reliable card with various identifying data will help the police in there work, could even have your dna a on there to rule you out of anything. that way there job would be easier and if you had no card then it's off to the clink to discuss it. Same rule for all whoever you are whatever colour background religeon. Due to the present state of security of this country, high levels of crime then we need to make some sacrifies to help the state bring about safe democratic society for all. I can se them being used to claom benefits even buy stuff when required, what about using them as a punisment for low level crime instead of a tag. Card taken you can't go out without risk of arrest and of to prison.

Do they have the technology to store trollvine biometric data yet?

"could even have your dna on there"
ew. Or someone else's...

cost and database security is
sues aside

im not so sure all this big brother paranoia isnt a load of bollox
if you aint doing anything illegal whats the problem??

the recent G20 protests and the death of that tomlinson fellow have shown that cctv and the surveilence society is a good thing even for the left wing rbs hating anarchists among us

although saying that im sure that all police will be cleared of all wrongdoing anyway just like with jc demenezes whatever the evidence says

what about using them as a punisment for low level crime instead of a tag. Card taken you can't go out without risk of arrest and of to prison.

So how would you work that then?
Checkpoints that everyone passing though would need to show their papers at?
Otherwise how would they know someone was out without papers?

Do they have the technology to store trollvine biometric data yet?

Indeed. I have already realised and stopped the feeding. 😉

It all looks wonderful on paper.
i.m.o. it'll never work, so a big NO from me.

I am reading this tome at present:

[url= http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41WAOTizI2L._SS500_.jp g" target="_blank">http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41WAOTizI2L._SS500_.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

I would recommend it to anyone, as it is interesting (if not necessarily easy to swallow or necessarily correct). The most intriguing thing about it is the way Goldberg picks apart what we mean by "fascist", and how there is a long history of basically benevolent government being, in his terms, clearly fascist. It is very US-based, which makes it quite a hard slog if, like me, you are not as up on 20th century US political history as one perhaps should be. The sections about FDR and the New Deal are partricualrly interesting in the current economic climate.

"Checkpoints that everyone passing though would need to show their papers at?"
It was ok for northern ireland so why not here?

"Otherwise how would they know someone was out without papers?"
Got to have cops that do there job.............................sh1t thats blown it.

Ok was just trying to get ourmaninthenorth on "And don't even start me on the "if you've done nothing wrong, you've nothing to fear" nonsense...." to give some more perspective on his comments.

To be quite honest I'm horrified that we have a so called goverment who seem to have spent the best part of the last 8(?) years taking away our rights, no one seems to be able to put up a coherent argument against them. If this had been the tories doing what labour is up to now all the bleeding heart lefties would be out in forces but it's there party that is turning the country one step closure each day to a facist totalitarian state. I supose that all left wingers have a predisposition to be dictators after all they semm to know what better for us and our money. It's interesting how many times the words democratic and socialist turn up in the name totalitarian countries. Supose we could start with Stalin, go via Hitler, look at the various Eastern block satelites, Mr Mugabe's Zimbabwe then perhaps over to that gobby git in Venezuela. Most of these countries require you to have some sort of ID card.

Must fly now as I'm being watched. Have seen the film Brazil.

izakimak - Member

mt. The only way the police can tell if you are who you say you are with an id card is if it is a legal requirement to carry it at all times

izakimak - I believe there was a tiny little line in the terrorism act introduced a couple of years ago that said the police could arrest you on the spot if you could not prove who you were. So 'technically' they could go through the motions of finding out who you were now, without ID cards.

The Labore govt still flogging this deah horse still astounds me.

breatheeasy - what did you remind us of that for, it's just starting to confirm that Tony and Gordon have really done for us. Facist state here we come.

"If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear"
Well, I fear having to prove I have nothing to hide. nt, imagine you're out somewhere, maybe had a couple of drinks, and it's lateish. You get stopped and asked to show your ID. Looking in your pocket, you realise with mounting horror your wallet is missing. With your credit, ATM and ID card in. The police march you off 'for a chat', and meanwhile someone else, quite probably with criminal intent, is wandering around with everything that proves who you are. Your ID card will probably be sold to another criminal, possibly with terrorist links, who will be able to hack all the biometric data, including your DNA, because anything that can be encoded can be hacked, especially if it's come through a government IT system.
And if you don't believe that hypothetical set of circumstances could happen, then you, sir, are an even bigger clot than you sound already. I believe you are actually a paid government spokesman trying to drum up support for the introduction of ID cards, and I challenge you to prove otherwise.
Now sod off.

Imagine a crime is committed at your place of work - imagine that everyones DNA is on a database. That wont solve the crime, it will just mean there are now hundreds of suspects than need scientific forensic tests to prove they are innocent. DNA testing is not foolproof or perfect and is open to abuse and mistake. Its not like it looks on the telly.

None of these initatives solve crimes, good policing does. Spend money on coppers who dont have to fill in forms. Id vote for that.

We should not have to prove anything to the gov. They need to prove they are here for our benefit.

but count you could then go to the police and say look, u had me banged up at the time when my card was being used for various crim activities

Ah, mt, good man.

You make interesting points about two things (1) the way that we, as a nation, have roilled over and taken it from the various Labour governments of the last 12 years and (2) as BD is evidently alluding to, the role of "nanny" statism to impose itself ever more highly on our personal lives (and with it our liberties).

(1) I think is symptomatic of a people who were too easily distracted by the shiny baubles of a growing economy, and an assumption that New Labour would necessarily be "better" for the nation than the outgoing Conservatives.

(2) You have a point. Hugo Chavez is certainly no saint; quite the opposite in my view. His ideals are not all inclusive, but very divisive, and rely on a redress of influence away from the (previously more educated) middle classes. It's an interesting experiment, but I can't see how he can continue as he does while the price of oil remains so low....

The issue with the left is often twofold: (1) an assumption that "we" know what's good for the people and (2) a doctrinal linkage to the dictatorship of the proletariat. This was most starkly seen in the Communist states (an oxymoron of ever there was one) of the 20th Century. But the issue remains: the state, in trying to create an allegedly more equal society, creates massive inequality, not within society, but as between the state and society. Hence my fear that this way tyranny lies.

Therefore, I maintain my view: the state needs not to become any more closely involved in me and my affairs. I do genuinely fear it. Not in an hysterical way, but in a real sense that my "identity - who I am - surely cannot belong to anyone but me, and the state does not have the right to cross that threshold. Sure, ID cards are not all the way across that line, but they are one step closer and I don't like it.

The point is the police have someone who cannot prove who he is, while someone is carrying on with possibly illegal act in that person's name. How does the incarcerated person prove that those acts are being carried out by another person or persons when he's unable to even prove who he says he is because the all-important ID card and its information is missing. There are already many examples of identity theft where innocent people are having difficulty proving they are innocent of fraud or theft when there is 'proof' by way of documents they were in fact responsible. There is an example of just how messed up this can get with the DVLA getting people's data wrong on their driving licenses, then forcing them to undergo new tests and exams because 'they never get data wrong', which is a blatant lie. When some bored, pissed-off civil servant enters your personal details incorrectly, how do you correct the information when what is in the database appears to show you're a different person. Monolithic government departments don't care, because THEY DON'T MAKE MISTAKES.

they have i.d. carsd here in germany.

on one level they are a good thing. a bit stupid that they are a little bigger than a credit card meaning purses are bigger, but that is ok as most german men cary coinage in their wallet too.

you can travel throughout europe with an i.d. card. even t the UK. it is only us that need a passport which i believe are more easily faked than an i.d. card.
it does cut down police time when asking for names as it is complusory to carry them.

it is the whole 'knowing where you are', what you do, where you go thing that scares me.

i would rather slip off the radar and have as little contact with 'the state' as possible (practically impossible here in germany - from cradle to grave (they even designate a burial place or somewhere you can spread loved ones ashes)). that goes for claiming handouts to paying taxes.

and i do do things that are illegal but it is only a problem if i get caught. and in which case i wouldn't give false details because i'm (sort-of) honest.

i'm not overly sure if this government, or any government, are capable of holding on securely to this information.

the world is a shit.

go watch [url= http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-594683847743189197 ]THIS[/url]

Trade bodies representing chains such as Boots and Snappy Snaps told the BBC they can be trusted with the data.

A mate of mine worked at Boots. A collegue of his was sacked, for making copies of 'saucy' pics off rolls of film customers had brought in for processing, or to be put on DVDs. He would sell these pics on CDs. Rumour had it that he'd also uploaded stuff to a website, but no evidence was found.

Does the government seriously think that such sensitive data will be completely safe, in the hands of private companies? And seeing as how these companies will be getting a cut, taxpayers will, ultimately, be forced into boosting revenue for private enterprise, even more than they do now.

And considering the technology available, could these cards not contain some form of tracking device, that could be read via similar technology that tracks mobile 'phones? Will people be expected to carry these at all times? Why? You don't have to have all your driving and insurance documents with you, when you drive, do you? If you get pulled, you have to surrender these documents to a police station. Why not the same with ID cards? What if I just want to go for a run, or down the shops? Do I have to take the bloody thing with me? What about old people, who may be a bit forgetful? Or people with mental disabilities, illnesses or diseases like Alzheimer's? People who may lack the mental ability to always have it on them?

I'm not against having an ID card, as much as I'm not against having a passport. I just object to being told I must carry it at all times, and the sheer waste of money this scheme will be. It won't stop crime, or terrorism. No nutter is not going to rob or murder me, just 'cos I've got a forking ID card on me, FFS.

And if it's compulsory, then why should we be forced to pay for the ****ing things? If I want to travel abroad, I pay for a passport. If I don't, I don't have to pay a thing.

As Blunkett said simply updating the passport would have been enough.

My biggest objection is that this idea has not gone before the British Public. We at least deserve a referendum on this. 'Onion Polls' are not a sufficient indication of what people really want.

I suspect they're going to contain tracking devices. Why don't they just microchip us all, and have done with it? Same thing, really...

Well put, RudeFredBra, well put

It will help youthful looking types get served in the offie I suppose. Can't think of any other benefits.

Maybe for a few quid more we could be impregnated with a ickul computer chip thingy, and we could have far more benefit from this. for eg we could use it to track where we are on remote trails. That'd be well handy