"What is fecked, is society. Increased fear and paranoia, increasing mistrust and xenophobia, an increased need to blame 'someone else' for life's ills. People no longer know or speak to their neighbours, chat to each other on the bus/train, have each others' kids in and out of the house playing, help out someone when they're in a bad place. Increased selfishness, greed, and the MeMeMe culture."

that's a common, generalised media portrayal of the uk, but not one that i recognise. and i'm sure my gran used to say the same thing about life about 15 years ago, once she stopped going out in a nice neighbourhood (due to age) and started reading the papers / watching tv a lot more. the media like to make us worry about things, i dunno what they have against a positive, happy society but they seem to like telling us that we're all doomed… it's a crock.

it ain't all great out there, but our perception of our world is a choice we can make that reflects back on how we interact with people, kind of self-fulfilling really.

many taxes are you so called dual taxes I pay tax on my income why should I then pay tax on the things I buy? What about income tax on interest from savings do all of these double taxes annoy you? What about capital gains tax – we could always apply that to houses instead would that make you feel better? Would that be afairer as the do seem to have gained a fair amount from the capital

TJ – you're quoting my first post as if it were my only post, we both know it wasn't and that I immediately agreed that the drug didn't contain a specific muscle relaxant but had that effect overall and that was the purpose for which it was prescribed and worked. But you choose to ignore those posts in order to somehow dis-credit my comments. If that's how you choose to work then fine, but you should be working as a tabloid journo as you're pretty good at it.

WRT the tax system, I understand how it works perfectly thanks.

Go and reread the thread – you continually insisted it acted as a muscle relaxant and refused to acknowledge you were wrong – and you clearly don't understand the inheritance tax from your answers on here.

For example it is transferable between couples.

ok fair comparisons so i'm showing some ignorance on tax in general here! VAT, capital gains, i understand why the economy needs these things. dual tax is the wrong way of expressing what i was clear about – that i think passing a home on to children shouldn't be taxable. if that is then thought to be about fostering priviledge, surely our society is too meritocratic now for that to allow a new generation of rotshchilds to develop?

homes are a more personal thing than most instances of capital gains, so i still think it's not quite right, but if as tj pointed out it's a small number affected and there's plenty of ways around it.

Go and reread the thread – you continually insisted it acted as a muscle relaxant and refused to acknowledge you were wrong – and you clearly don't understand the inheritance tax from your answers on here.

I'm sorry, what?…

coffeeking – So while they may not specifically be muscle relaxants, that is the effect they have.

Errrr re-read it yourself.

For example it is transferable between couples.

I never argued this? WTF? Are you drinking today? If you're going to be pedantic about things you need to at least be right.

If you're going to be pedantic about things you need to at least be right.

To be fair he rarely needs to be right to argue /be pedantic 😉
Not followed your private thread so no idea on this but you do remind me of my two boys squabbling at bath time 😆

😆 Thanks guys!

I'll study this thread in more detail

Not followed your private thread so no idea on this but you do remind me of my two boys squabbling at bath time

Indeed, I'm more than willing to admit when I'm wrong but I am stubborn when someone tells me I've said something that I haven't. Time out, can't be arsed any more, stuff to do.

Inheritance tax/dual tax

Trouble is it's a tax on doing nothing more than living a life then dying. It used to be for the rich now it's the top 3% apparently – well maybe they're still rich people but there's more now?

I mentioned up there somewhere that I think inheritance tax would be better as one on the recipient rather than the dead person, (same as CGT maybe) so that it might get spread around a bit more.

always felt that most people old enough to vote remember the tory 80's, where greed was encouraged and social responsibility was forgotten, a lot of people did well out of the tories at the time (like my dad for example) and labour were the angry face of the working classes, being laughed at by rich, successful people. with the fall of the berlin wall and the subsequent collapse of communism in the west, Labours socialist values became redundant and seemed old fashioned, capitalism became the new way and everyone regardless of background was told that they could achieve dizzy new heights in only they worked hard and were willing to gamble. The lib dems were irrelevant.

in the early 90's the world economy had taken a slump. War in Iraq had opened peoples eyes to the idea that maybe the "conventional" governments did not control the world as much as they would have liked, and that we all had to bow at the table of oil barons etc. people who chased convservtive dreams were now starting to fail and society was again starting to falter in much the same way it had in the late 70's, where by the poor were locked in a cycle of poorness and the middle classes could not advance further up their imagined league tables. The rich remained rich (mostly). War in former yugoslavia is too close to home for some and reminds us all that actually we are not a super developed society and are as faliable as anywhere else. IRA step up then effectivley step back, making sure everyone in UK knows what COULD happen, but hopefully wont.

1997, new labour, Young Leader, strong catch phrases, seems to fit neatly into the uk's media focussed environment. Makes politics "sexy" to people who wouldn't normally care, re invents labour as the party for al rather than the party for workers and socialists. electorate want change, tony says change three times in a row and we all take a step to an imagined left…

ten years later some working class people get very rich, some rich people get richer. Lots of imagined richness (I bought my house for 23p and sold it for 18billion. Then bought a back to back terrace house in Leeds of 20billion, then sold it for 40p etc etc)

Success is governed not by hard work but by ability to "play the system" and willingness to gamble. some people feel this is fine (usually those who found success) some question the ethics of a society that traps certain groups. Rising imigration blamed for everything from terrorism to Xfactor bullying. Society becomes more obsessed with media "stars" that politics as all partys have become one bland soundbyte after another. media saturation has distorted truth into "known facts and unknown facts" people bored of multiple wars with high casulaty rates and financial downturn. Jade Goody dies, a nation weeps.

2010. Labour are gone, people either vote for them because they always have, or because they are slum landlords in Bolton and made a lot of money out of labour and swap their vote for their last shred of dignity. Everyone votes conservative then regrets in 6 days later when king cameron pulls of his mask to reveal himself as a mad old lady being carried by a selection of ex US presidents. Lib Dems take the official opposition seat as people vote them in out of pity and curiosity across the country.

dreams of hung parliament go out of the window along with allance of green socialists, BNP,UKIP etc.

trains still run late, petrol stil goes up, NHS costs more and more for less and less. Crime statistics "change" or stay the same. either way the sun continues to shine with every headline in CAPITALS!!!!!! for added poke to boring non stories and we all lap it up.

a great man once said, it doesn't matter who you vote for, the government still wins, I can't remember who that was but id vote for him. Personaly, I'm voting Lib dem, cos I'm ginger, and a bit fat so i understand their pain.

excellent post.

Yes, great post meehaja!

Really does some up the last 25/30 years of UK history.

I find this a pretty glib view of the world and it certainly doesn't reflect the one that I live in. I talk to all of the neighbours that I actually like. Our kids always played at the other kids houses and we still have the sulky teenage friends around now. The bus driver helps people on and on to the bus and even stops at your house if you ask him. No one is scared, no one is paranoid and most people have always been xenophobic, so no change there.

that's a common, generalised media portrayal of the uk, but not one that i recognise. and i'm sure my gran used to say the same thing about life about 15 years ago, once she stopped going out in a nice neighbourhood (due to age) and started reading the papers / watching tv a lot more. the media like to make us worry about things, i dunno what they have against a positive, happy society but they seem to like telling us that we're all doomed… it's a crock.

For those who can't see much beyond their garden gate…

We live in an affluent, prosperous nation. We enjoy some of the best standards of Education and Health Care available anywhere. Our legal system is the envy of many countries. Etc.

BUT

One look on here on an average day, reveals just what a disparate and dysfunctional society we do live in, in many ways. The number of threads going on about 'Pikeys' or 'religious nutters' or Chavs' or whatever group chosen by posters to attack, shows the depth of ignorance, fear and mistrust amongst our communities. Xenophobia and fear of crime make people shut themselves away in their ivory towers, pretending everything's all right. People feel fearful of scolding rowdy kids in the street or on the bus, people are less inclined to want to queue up politely, they park in Disabled bays, act with less courtesy and tolerance for others, yet the second you question any aspect of their behaviour, they always have some form of justification for their own actions, and expect to be absolved of all their own sins, while screaming about the 'injustice' of a Kosovan family getting vital benefits, or someone in front of them at a petrol pump taking too long. People have become more snobbish, more insular, more compartmentalised. The working classes want to be Middle Class, the Middle Classes feel embarrassed about their own fortune, and buy Fairtrade coffee and bananas to alleviate their guilt, the Upper Classes dream of those Halcyon days when the Oiks knew their place…

We are less patient, less forgiving, less understanding. In spite of our wonderfully diverse culture, people retreat into passive absorption of trash TV, mocking those who try to better themselves, while stuffing their faces with KFC/Kettle Chips/Paté de Fois Gras. The Weekend becomes a time when they eagerly pile into their cars, to drive to some soulless cultural desert of IKEA, B+Q, or Bluewater. Sit there complaining about their neighbours children, while imposing their own greedy selfish values on their own offspring. Spend thousands on a new telly to watch Children in Need on…

Then they sit back enjoying their imported goods, afforded them by economic Imperialism, things made by those far worse off than themselves, in far off lands, and pontificate about immigration…

And all the time ignorant of the fact that maybe, quite possibly, Jack isn't all right, and might actually need some help, some kindness, some Love.

Jack obviously hasn't worked hard enough, hasn't empowered himself, has brought all his problems upon himself.

Maybe people just don't know Jack…

nice rant Fred, a bit sixth form politics essay styleeee but at least you tried 🙂

Thanks. We weren't allowed to study politics in school, as a certain Education Minister banned it…

So that's what London's like?

Jack obviously hasn't worked hard enough, hasn't empowered himself, has brought all his problems upon himself.

So long as Jack has the same chances provided at the outset I see no problem in saying "you had your chance", tough (assuming you don't then go on to endlessly fund their lifestyle). Providing jack is initially helped if he falls on hard times or makes a mistake, and continues to want to work and contribute, I see see no-one from any party or political conviction wanting to withdraw aid. People dislike Jack when he twists the system to his advantage. People dislike Jack when he doesn't even start despite having the same chances to as everyone else. People should be helped to be part of society, but should not be helped TO part of society.

For example it is transferable between couples.

I never argued this? WTF? Are you drinking today?

The inheritance tax "nil rate band" is transferable between spouses and civil partners. The NRB is currently £325k. If you're worth less than that, you pay no tax. But, if you transfer assets to your spouse you also pay no tax, so in this circumstance the NRB is not used.

On the subsequent death of your spouse, s/he has an NRB (£325k currently) of his/her own and also the portion of your NRB that was not used up on your death (100% if you transferred all assets to your spouse on death).

So currently, for a married couple leaving all their assets to one another, the exemption is £650k. If you're worth more than that, as a couple, you'll pay some inheritance tax.

If you're wealthy, inheritance tax is one of the best tax reasons to get married that there is. 🙂

More coffeeking pish.

What about if Jack has mental health difficulties? What if he is disabled? What if he is just thick? How about if he never got the educational opportunities for reasons beyond his contro9l? child abuse and so on?

You really do know jack shit don't you.

For those who can't see much beyond their garden gate…

Well that's yourself really Fred. East London isn't the world, get out a bit more. You might actually find a bit of hope in humanity.

As for the rest of it, put me in mind of that great left wing thinker of the 80's

East London isn't the world, get out a bit more.

I'm not suggesting it is. although it's perhaps possibly more indicative of the country as a whole, than the utopian little village you describe so beautifully.

The same applies to most of the UK; from the roughest inner city areas, to the gated suburban enclaves, and rural outposts. Are you really telling me that most of the UK isn't like that? Then you really do have your head in the sand.

And the responses so far merely serve to prove my point even more.

Now, where's my **** coffee??

Country's gone to the dogs, I tells yer…

Oh and I have every faith in Humanity.

It's just Right-Wing Thatcherite Conservatism I can't stand…

I'm not suggesting it is. although it's perhaps possibly more indicative of the country as a whole, than the utopian little village you describe so beautifully

Ooh……. I can feel the hate in that bit. You know that love that you're always preaching about ?

How do you know that I'm talking about a village ? In my experience and I've lived in cities, towns and villages people are the same and by and large you get treated as you treat others. And if I was refering to a village then maybe there's something in that don't you think ? A close community where people care for each other and look out for each other, regardless of who has what or who has not ?

I'm sure your prejudice wouldn't let you see village life as being anything other than a bunch of upper class fox hunters with posh bolt holes away from the city and everyone there must be a Thatcherite. 🙄

Like I said earlier, broaden your horizons Fred because your looking pretty blinkered on this one.

luked2 – Member

in 1974, the National Union of Mineworkers effectively forced out Ted Heath's elected government.

Well that is complete nonsense …….. isn't it ? 😕

Did the National Union of Mineworkers storm 10 Downing Street and kick Ted Heath out ?
Or maybe they stormed the Houses of Parliament and overthrew the "elected government" ?

No of course not. Ted Heath was kicked out by the "British electorate" in a "general election". If the British people had wanted to, they could have given Ted Heath a thumping great majority in '74, which is what he asked them to do. But they didn't want to.

The British people are the final arbitrators. And it is they who kicked Ted Heath out.

.

TandemJeremy – Member

……. we have some of the toughest immigration controls in the world.

More complete nonsense !

1.5 million eastern Europeans have arrived in the UK in the last six …. with no controls whatsoever !

New Labour operated a completely "open door policy" at the time of EU enlargement, despite the fact that practically every other EU country did not.

Like I said earlier, broaden your horizons Fred because your looking pretty blinkered on this one.

Really? Do elaborate…

The best you can come up with is a picture of a fictional character, in response to someone daring to question Perfect Britain. Please.

I'm sure your prejudice wouldn't let you see village life as being anything other than a bunch of upper class fox hunters with posh bolt holes away from the city and everyone there must be a Thatcherite.

Where did I say that? Please go and find proof to back up your claims of my prejudicial nature.

Truth is, I've twisted your nipple on this one, and you're desperate to try to out-clever me. Not going to happen sonny. Rik from the Young Ones? Is that the best you can do?

Now, if you were to produce an intelligent, reasoned, enlightened response to my 'blinkered pessimism', then I might take you seriously.

But like most little Thatcherites, the only thing you can really do is attempt to discredit your opponent. Hasn't worked. Deep down, you know I'm right, you're just too angry and constipated to admit it.

1.5 million eastern Europeans have arrived in the UK in the last six …. with no controls whatsoever !

That's because they come from EU countries, Ernie. There are no immigration issues with these countries. And a vast number have now gone home again. The net economic impact of East Yerpeans in the UK is very positive, I understand.

Why do you have such an issue with East Yerpeans anyway? Many of the young ladies are very pretty.

Ernie's point is that unlike the UK most other EU countries controlled the flow of immigration from the new accession states at the time of Poland's entry. The UK did when Bulgaria and Romania joined indeed.

Hmm. But then we have a policy of allowing Aussies and Kiwis entry simply because they had a grandparent from the UK. In fact, I can't find the figures now, but I have read that one of the worst groups for outstaying visas is Aussies! 😀 I've known several that have done this, and they don't seem to face the same sort of pressure as those from other places. Fly below the radar, as it were. You don't hear so many folk kicking up a fuss about this though, and it doesn't seem to make the headlines…

If someone from France can come here, I don't see why other Yerpeans can't. Otherwise, what's the point of the EU?

Works both ways. Some East Yerpean countries are facing problems because Western Yerpeans are buying up property there, thus pricing the 'locals' out of the housing market.

But like most little Thatcherites

😆

I'm opposing what you've said so I'm a Thatcherite ? Clown.

Now, if you were to produce an intelligent, reasoned, enlightened response to my 'blinkered pessimism', then I might take you seriously

I already have done but you've ignored it. I live in a community where people care for each other. You've chosen to ignore that because it doesn't suit your agenda.

Where did I say that? Please go and find proof to back up your claims of my prejudicial nature.

Mmmm oK

The working classes want to be Middle Class, the Middle Classes feel embarrassed about their own fortune, and buy Fairtrade coffee and bananas to alleviate their guilt, the Upper Classes dream of those Halcyon days when the Oiks knew their place

Sounds like lots of folk being pre judged there.

Or this….

But like most little Thatcherites, the only thing you can really do is attempt to discredit your opponent.

What on earth have I said that makes me a supporter of un-fettered free market economy, crushing the working classes or selling off the national family silver ? Again, just prejudice.

Oh go on then one more….

The Weekend becomes a time when they eagerly pile into their cars, to drive to some soulless cultural desert of IKEA, B+Q, or Bluewater. Sit there complaining about their neighbours children, while imposing their own greedy selfish values on their own offspring

Who are they ? These people that you homogenously class together in order to apply an assumed, negative value to. I don't think that you're actually any different to someone giving travellers a hard time for leaving rubbish behind or someone saying that foreigners are smelly.

Thread hijack #4: Pikes or Toras? 🙂

If someone from France can come here, I don't see why other Yerpeans can't.

This, and indeed the Aussies point, is a bit disingenuous. The French come here, but in modest numbers because the wages they can command in France are roughly equivalent to the wages they can command here. They don't have much effect on the labour market.

People came here from Poland in genuinely vast numbers because the wages they could command here were much, much higher than the wages they could command in Poland. That had a material effect on the UK labour market in some sectors, driving down the cost of wages. They came to the UK rather than going to France because the UK did not restrict them coming here, and France did.

It may be a beautiful free market experiment, but it had real consequences for anyone who found themselves in direct competition for work with people from a relatively poor country. The theoretical advantages of moving to Poland for a British plumber meanwhile are not very compelling. I benefit from having cheap plumbers. Polish plumbers benefit from higher wages and are able to remit cash home. British plumbers do not benefit.

I don't know what the numbers of Aussies are. I reckon if a million arrived in unexpectedly in one year we'd hear more about it. 🙂

Aha! A bite, methinks…

I live in a community where people care for each other. You've chosen to ignore that because it doesn't suit your agenda.

Unless you're particularly naive or blinkered, I think even you would agree that this isn't really the 'norm' for most of the country. 80% of the UK population live in urban areas; the sort of ideal set up you are lucky enough to enjoy sadly exists in fewer and fewer places.

Sounds like lots of folk being pre judged there.

Only reporting the facts. And I could argue that some of your statements about me were pretty judgemental. Certainly ignorant.

Who are they ? These people that you homogenously class together in order to apply an assumed, negative value to.

The British. I'll admit that's generalising somewhat, but you get the picture.

Somewhere in your own mind you've found a place where it's justifyable to hate and stereotype.

I have no qualms in disliking people who act in a selfish manner, and who allow themselves to conform to the 'stereotype', no.

Trailmonkey; you can pick and nibble all you want, but you still know I'm right, don't you darling? 😀

X

People came here from Poland in genuinely vast numbers because the wages they could command here were much, much higher than the wages they could command in Poland. That had a material effect on the UK labour market in some sectors, driving down the cost of wages. They came to the UK rather than going to France because the UK did not restrict them coming here, and France did.

It may be a beautiful free market experiment, but it had real consequences for anyone who found themselves in direct competition for work with people from a relatively poor country. The theoretical advantages of moving to Poland for a British plumber meanwhile are not very compelling. I benefit from having cheap plumbers. Polish plumbers benefit from higher wages and are able to remit cash home. British plumbers do not benefit.

If you have a restaurant, you want people to come and eat there. If your restaurant is good, more people will come and eat there. You could get so popular, that people are queueing up to get in. With so many people wanting to eat there, it's only a matter of time before another restaurant opens up down the road. Then, you might find you are losing customers, and have to compete for business once more…

Obviously this brilliant analogy means that you're entirely correct. 😉

If you have a restaurant, you want people to come and eat there. If your restaurant is good, more people will come and eat there. You could get so popular, that people are queueing up to get in. With so many people wanting to eat there, it's only a matter of time before another restaurant opens up down the road. Then, you might find you are losing customers, and have to compete for business once more…

I'll have a 14, a 7, a 9 and lychees please. Fankoo.

What tyres you using for terminal delusion Fred ? 😀

British plumbers do not benefit.

British plumbers who were previously making loads of money now only making a reasonable living like everyone else. Boohoo.

Despite the influx of Polish plumbers it's still pretty hard to find one round here who can be arsed to come out and look at your problem in timely fashion.

Not in my league, are you trailmonkey? 😉

Obviously this brilliant analogy means that you're entirely correct.

Thank you! 😀

CFH, The Pan Dang Leaf Chicken is off today, can I get you some Butterfly King Prawns instead?

Getting back to the subject I quite liked the one in the following linky:
Tories are no longer homophobic 🙂