Biodiversity
Red and roe deer are natural components of the British
landscape, and fallow are a long-standing naturalised
species. However, many habitats prized for their
conservation value today developed over the past
thousand years in the presence of lower numbers of deer.
The Joint Nature Conservation Committee (JNCC),
Natural England, and Scottish Natural Heritage all regard
excessive deer densities as a serious threat to a
significant portion of National Nature Reserves (NNRs)
and Sites of Special Scientific Interest (SSSIs).

http://www.parliament.uk/documents/post/postpn325.pdf

You couldn’t do it could you TJ?

Always the same… Like I said:

Tell you what, if you want to have intelligent discussion, I’m all up for it TJ – but just cutting and pasting random choice quotes off the net with partial contex that you think supports your argument isn’t that!

I’ve taken time and care to explain my position and just a few of the factors behind the complexity of deer management with a number of variables, If you cannot make the arguments yourself, don’t bother!

Zulu – learn to read

Thats SNH who have taken over from the DCS stating that overpopulation is an serious issue, SWT, WWF, RSPB all agree

I think that is rather more likely to be true than your continual assertions without evidence

You are the one who won’t have an adult debate. I can do no more. I have told you deer overpopulation is a serious issue, explained why this is so, and I have presented you with evidence in context from a range of organisations from SNH who administer the cull to a deerstalking group.

You just assert without evidence

If deer overpopulation was a serious issue everywhere – as you claim – rather than on a localised basis, then they would be setting about on the biggest widespread cull programme that has ever been seen, however this is not the case, the DCS (now combined with SNH) have undertaken a number of localised heavy culls, such as that at Glen Finshie.

All the quotes you’ve cut and pasted use qualification phrases like “significant portion” or “in some areas” – they do not say everywhere – read your own reams of cut and paste TJ, thats all the evidence you need!

So, like I said, a localised problem, my point being supported by what you cut and pasted!

Zulu – learn to read. I did not say everywhere, its clearly more than a localised issue. i suggest you read the SNH documents to attempt to understand

I have given you the attention you crave now. Its nice to see yo making such a plonker of yourself. Yo may understand the situation in England, ( I don’t know enough to be sure) but you clearly have no understanding of the situation in Scotland.

If I were yo I would invoke hatterslys law.

Zulu – learn to read. I did not say everywhere, its clearly more than a localised issue

From Page 2:

If they did that in Scotland there would be 1/10th as many deer or less. They really are vermin up here and very destructive to teh land

No qualification, no “in certain areas” a blanket statement!

It is right across the country.

seems fairly unequivocal to me!

but you clearly have no understanding of the situation in Scotland.

As I said: TJ, could you look at a browsed tree and tell if the damage was done by a feral goat, a deer or a hare? Until you can, don’t try and teach your grandmother to suck eggs 🙄

Now, trust me my flat living Bohemian… I know more than enough about the highland economy and deer population dynamics!

TandemJeremy – Member

Zulu – learn to read. I did not say everywhere, its clearly more than a localised issue. i suggest you read the SNH documents to attempt to understand

I have given you the attention you crave now. Its nice to see yo making such a plonker of yourself. Yo may understand the situation in England, ( I don’t know enough to be sure) but you clearly have no understanding of the situation in Scotland.

If I were yo I would invoke hatterslys law.

Zulu – learn to read.

Knobber alert. He clearly can read, why’d you post something like that?

You really do have issues TJ. Z11 clearly knows his stuff, and yet you have absolutely ZERO respect for that. You’re behaving disgracefully. Again.

Are they still arguing, these two?? 😯

Even I would’ve given up by now!!!

D’you realise how silly you both look?

Pair of wallies! 😆

Molgrips – I fully acknowledged his knowledge but also questioned its limitations. What he says about Scotland is unsupported by anyone including the stalkers. All the conservation organisations and the shooting fraternity accept that deer overpopulation is a widespread issue in Scotland leading to all sorts of problems.

Whay did I say ” learn to read”? Because he clearly was not reading what I posted and I got exasperated. He might actaully learn soimething if he reads the links to the experts including SNH who are responsible for deer management.

Molgrips – look how offensive he was to me before I got exasperated. My failing wws getting drawn into the argument with him. I should have just stopped earlier. after all I have shown him to be wrong

Elf – yes I do which is why I stopped.

I actually didn’t see him being offensive.

I also didn’t see you asking where he got his information from. You seemed to assume he knew nothing, because he disagreed with your casual googling.

If someone takes a different viewpoint, you could either a) say ‘oh that’s interesting, tell me more, how come you know this stuff?’ or b) say ‘you’re clearly wrong because you disagree with me and my layman’s research.’

You ALWAYS seem to choose b). Why is this? It always ends up in one of these acrimonious slanging matches which are bloody boring tbh.

I would like to ask Z11 why he seems so knowledgeable, I’m quite interested.

Plus, I’ve read the thread a couple of times and I can’t work out what you are actually arguing about.

rant rant rant, I know more than you, rant rant, bloke I work with is the world’s no 1 stalker, SAS, SBS, rant rant, animal rights, rant.

Have I covered everything?

Thought so.

Well I suggest you have a read then molgrips.

TandemJeremy – Member

Zulu does have decent knowledge on this however his viewpoint is the hunters viewpoint. A conservation viewpoint might be different

Zulu-Eleven – Member

I think you’ve been reading your RSPB propaganda again TJ…

Zulu-Eleven – Member

Tell you what, if you want to have intelligent discussion, I’m all up for it TJ – but just cutting and pasting random choice quotes off the net with partial contex that you think supports your argument isn’t that

I find the patronising attitude there somewhat offensive. Note this is before I got exsasperated with him

Actually I do know a little about this and the stuff I posted is from the experts in the field. What the experts state backs what I say not what Zulu says. Not once did he produce anything to support his position. He also distorted and misquoted what I said in a classic straw man arguemnet.

The bits of his posts that you are complaining about are EXACTLY the kinds of things that offend me in YOUR posts, and yet you say it’s perfectly benign when you come out with it.

Just to clear up – are you saying that there should be more deer culled than Z11 is suggesting?

As far as I could tell, Z11 is simply saying that your googlings aren’t the whole story, but you don’t seem to have asked him what his point of view really is? Choosing instead to slag him off..? Now I appreciate that that is probably not what you WANTED to do, but it’s what it looks like.

molgrips – Member

Plus, I’ve read the thread a couple of times and I can’t work out what you are actually arguing about.

he thinks the overpopulation of red deer in Scotland is only a small localised issue. I along with SNH, SWt and all the other experts in the field know it is a big and widespread issue. However Zulu enjoys provoking people for the attention so he did – and I fell for it.

The overpopulation leads to all sorts of issues – from erosion and preventing regeneration of the forest to the deaths from starvation of many deer to the fact that many deer are in poor condition as the population outgrows the food supply. Its all in the links I posted. even the hunting industry agrees with this.

Edit – yes I think the deer population should be reduced dramatically.

TJ, you came on here with wild blanket statements that deer were vermin, overpopulated by a thousand percent, across the entirety of Scotland. You did not nuance or qualify your comments in any way.

Frankly, as usual with you, bollocks!

There are five species of wild deer present in Scotland – your comments could only possibly apply to two of those species, Red and Sika, in two regions of Scotland (H&I), Scotland is not limited to one environment, yet your wild blanket statements quite clearly say its a problem “It is right across the country”

You talk about not listening and not substantiating your comments and lack of evidence – tell you what, substantiate this:

1/10th as many deer

Come on, point me towards your supporting evidence for a 90% reduction in deer populations being needed, come on, back it up, because all your cut and paste effort only states that there is a localised problem in some areas – Typical bullshit hyperbole because you’ve read something on the internet you think you know everything, rather than having spent a lifetime studying the **** subject!

You try and dump into intelligent conversations that other people are having and swamp people with partial cut and paste of arguments that you think supports your bullshit argument, but you’re completely unable to actually discuss the subject yourself, because you really know **** all about it, but set about crayoning on threads with cut and past and not actually listening to the points being made over the complexity of the issues and fact that your experience is limited to the fact you’re talking about one species in one environment! Even the quotes you have cut and pasted only talk about Red deer in the highlands, and they all use qualifying statements like “in some areas”

You quite clearly stated that deer are vermin, are overpopulated to a magnitude of ten, and that this applied right across the country.

not only is that bollocks, its silly bollocks, since, as I pointed out, there are five different species of deer in Scotland, in a huge variety of different habitats, your blanket statement could not possibly apply to all those different, complex, nuanced and varied situations 🙄

The story of Deer in Scotland is not only the tale of the Red deer in the highlands!

TJ almost never listens to anyone else on these threads 🙁

If he did, we’d all get along way better.

I am not going to argue with you any further Zulu. 1/10 was clear hyperbole and nowhere id I say the rest of what you claim I did.

Deer overpopulation is a large and widespread issue and this is acknowledged by all bodies involved in conservation and stalking in Scotland.

Molgrips I have explained my position. I do listena dn I did learn a bit even from zulu on this thread.

I think we all have a problem with your arrogant attitude, rather than whether or not deer numbers are a problem

Deer overpopulation is a large and widespread issue

Thats not what you originally claimed though is it TJ?

As I stated above – The story of Deer in Scotland is not only the tale of the Red deer in the Highlands!

yes it is exactly what I claimed and you denied it.

I think we all have a problem with your arrogant attitude

sorry.. that’s bollocks..

I think TJ exercises formidable patience in the face of almost his every attempt to present a conflicting viewpoint being heckled and ridiculed

+1 Yunki – in general not read this thread

I think we all have a problem with your arrogant attitude

I don’t! 😀

I think TJ’s a decent, caring person. if you mistake passion for ‘arrogance’ then that’s a fault with your perception maybe, not with TJ.

I’ve got no problems with conflicting viewpoints.

But TJ assumes everyone else is stupid (or seems to) and selectively ignores information in others’ posts.

TJ, I’ll say it again, and once you comprehend it you will start to learn

The story of Deer in Scotland is not only the tale of the Red deer in the Highlands!

Your blanket statements entirely miss that vital point, and once you comprehend that, you will begin to see why I’m telling you that your point is utter bollocks!

But TJ assumes everyone else is stupid (or seems to) and selectively ignores information in others’ posts.

No he doesn’t. Why, only a couple of days ago he conceded he was wrong about something. Something very, very few people on here do.

He is a champion arguer though. 😀

Ta for the support. I think my lesson here is don’t allow Zulu to bait me into stupid pointless arguments – which he is still trying to do. I fall for it far too often.

I must learn to make my point then walk away.

No, you must learn to respect other people’s intelligence and accept the things that they are saying.

Otherwise, what’s the point? Really?

I think my lesson here is don’t allow Zulu to bait me into stupid pointless arguments

Or perhaps the lesson should be not to make hyperbole based unequivocal blanket statements about subjects of which you know the square root of **** all!

No, you must learn to respect other people’s intelligence

Yeah but what if they’re actually not very intelligent? I mean, I’m not being funny right, but I’m an absolute idiot, so why should TJ respect me? Indeed, surely he has every right to mock, belittle and insult me? He doesn’t, actually- which proves that he’s not the disrespectful arrogant sod you are trying to suggest he is.

Yeah but lots of people on here ARE very intelligent – it’s why I keep coming back. However TJ seems happy to insult everyone’s intelligence all over the place.

He seems convinced that I’m thick as pigsh*t and naive and gullible to boot.

No I’m sure he doesn’t. Do you TJ?

pfffffffffft

He seems convinced that I’m thick as pigsh*t and naive and gullible to boot

So he is good judging people then 😉

His favourite thing is to post links to articles and claim you haven’t bothered to read them even when you have. Then he claims you haven’t understood them, and you have. He just sidesteps every proof of those two things that you can muster.

It’s bloody infuriating 🙁 and very upsetting, which is why I keep going on about it 🙁