ok ive been getting a fair bit of advice from here, and my 29er wheels went a treat. stans 355 rims and non tubeless tyres, and they seem perfect, as was stated on here.

so i thought id try my 26" wheels. NON tubeless rims, NON tubeless tyres. still had some yellow tape left, and some stans sealant, so thought id give it a go.
had the option of ghetto if id bought bmx tubes, but decided to try and get a seal without. nah, fraid not 🙁

i used yellow tape, bit of gaffer tape over the valve hole for extra strength, cut 2 presta valves out of waste inners and went for it.

i used the 'unseat the bead, pour in, then re-seat bead method'.

compressed air from work, plenty of soapy water and inflated. tried a dry run to start with, just to make sure it would inflate and seat. then did it again with sealant.

it went up, i did the 'tubeless dance' and hopefully it sealed it all.

2nd tyre wouldnt even inflate. plenty of soapy water, same process as before, but wouldnt have it. i had 4 tyres all together, so tried others, and it still wouldnt.

in the meantime, wheel 1 was slowly leaking. i could see little bubbles forming, so i made sure i tipped the wheel there to hopefully seal those places. but it just wouldnt work. and in a few hours tyre was down again.

pics are below of the little bubbles.

now im quite prepared to believe that it didnt work cos it was a totally non tubeless set up, and i didnt use rim strips/ghetto tubes/whatever, BUT im baffled as to why, when there were tiny holes blowing air out, the sealant didnt seal them, whether theyre tubeless rims or not! theyre little holes, and theres sealant for plugging little holes. so why didnt it seal? :-/

any thoughts?

it's 'cos you're not using rim strips.

ther'es only so many holes that sealnt can deal with and the edge of your tyre is ribbed.

to be honest i'm a bit unsure that the whole sealant thing works. i got a nail in a tyre a couple of months ago, left it in til i got home coz i didnt want to risk it. when i eventually took it out rather than the magical instantaneous sealing that i was expecting the sealant just pissed out everywhere. it did eventually seal but the tyre was almost completely flat by this point. whilst being a fairly substantial hole it was nowhere near the 1/4" size that Stan's claims it will seal.

i'm sure it must have sealed various punctures whilst out on the trail but i wasn't expecting it to fail on a nail after watching all their promo vids.

with regards to your pics maybe the tyre and the rim strip are not meeting properly and therefore having difficulty making a bond which is providing room for the sealant to leak out?

try the ghetto method.

yeah? it surprises me that theres only so many holes itll deal with, as surely a holes a hole, and there was still sealant in there :-/

i did consider the ribbed edge, but as i said, i just thought if there are small holes there, the sealant will sort it.

would rim strips help then, by the bead pushing into something soft and sealing better?

thanks

Because rim strips and non tubless is a shit system? Did use it once, and never again, moved over to proper UST, and it works as advertised.

Peachos, how much latex in those tyres in the Stan's video d'you reckon?

oh it works peachos 🙂

im well happy with it on my other wheels. but 1/4" does seem quite a large hole for it to seal, yes.

you right, itll have to be ghetto. just want to be pretty sure in my mind that THAT will work!

cheers

Would be interesting to see some home made versions of the Stan's youtube nail video as I'm not convinced mine would see especially quickly either. Seems to deal with thorns and stuff great but when I've had issues getting a good seal around valves the sealant seems to take a couple of minutes of vigorous shaking before it seals.

haha, yeah you're right nickc – there's probably a couple of pints in each tyre and they're inflated to abouy 80psi!

nah i do think the system as a whole works – i've gone from getting up to 5 punctures a ride to about 5 within the last 6 months so definitely a HUGE benefit.

ghetto works perfectly for me it creates a completely sealed tyre/strip combination.

I had exactly the same problem as the OP with two lots of tyres ( WTB Moto Raptors and Speccy Enduro's) Just couldn't get a proper seal around the rim. Swapped tyres to Speccy 2Bliss Eskars and they sealed first time and don't leak any air at all. I top up my tyres with air less than once a month.

I use super-ghetto tubless (no rimstrips or tubes, just some gaffer tape and electrical tape) so I imagine good quality, rubbery tyre rims are more critical.

I've never had any problems like the above, despite doing it in a rush, using shady old 'rim strips' from previously ghetto-ed wheels and not using compressed air.

I think the secret is really building the rim up so that the tyre is a super tight fit. If its not difficult to get the tyre on, i'll take it off again and wrap another layer or two of insulating tape around it.

It sounds like a faff, and it does take an extra ten minutes or so to get it right, but I have had zero problems with tubeless using this method.

I'm unconvinced Latex is all that tbh, have been running mine dry for the past month and no issues! Bearing in mind this is a full UST system (819's on UST tires).

NON tubeless rims, NON tubeless tyres = tubeless fail, kinda obvious no?

UST 823's and Maxxis LUST HR's all the way here, no punctures or problems, go on with a track pump and stay up. no punctures in 12+ mths.

I've only run one UST tyre, in about 8 tubeless set ups now.

Currently running:

Rubber Queen UST tyre on non-UST rim using ghetto – Tight fit, but once up, has stayed up since.

ADvantage non UST on UST rims – Easy up, has stayed up since. Even with sealant and a couple of layers of insulating tape to ensure a tight fit, this still rides light and has been perfect since installation.

ADvantage non-ust on non-ust rim using ghetto – usual patience required setting up, trouble free ever since.

Have used other tyres in the past, Conti Slash and Mountain Kings in particular, all with similarly satisfying results. The one thing they've all had in common is a very thick layer of rim tape to make the tyre super tight, i'm sure this prevents burps too.

Non-UST tyres on Non-UST rims work perfectly, if the tyres i wanted came in UST and didn't weight a tonne then i would use them, but they don't so i'll use ghetto until they do.

NON tubeless rims, NON tubeless tyres = tubeless fail, kinda obvious no?

Nope, worked fine on a couple of mine.

see this is whats confusing me a bit

The one thing they've all had in common is a very thick layer of rim tape to make the tyre super tight, i'm sure this prevents burps too.

isnt rim tape the yellow tape or insulating tape that covers the spoke holes? so how would that ensure a tight fit/prevent burps etc? or are you wrapping it up the inside of the rim wall and over the edge to make it harder to seat the tyre?

Even with sealant and a couple of layers of insulating tape to ensure a tight fit, this still rides light and has been perfect since installation.

people also talk about using gaffer tape etc. exactly where are you putting this gaffer tape or insulating tape? are you using it instead of the ghetto split tube, and wrapping it over the edge of the rim?

you can use gaffer tape instead of the rim strip/bmx tube. jus make sure that it covers the entire inside profile of the rim, creating an air-tight layer once the tyre bead is seated.

all the way up the rim then, but not over the top and trimmed later a la ghetto tube?

The tyre seals against the sides of the rim, but when fitting the thing that makes them loose is the bead against the chamfered bit of the rim before the bead hits the side fully. Imagine the chamfered bit and spoke bed being fractionally larger diameter – this makes the tyre harder to get onto the rim but also causes it to seal on a second face, rather than just the outside edge. It makes it easier to inflate initially and harder for it to pop off in a burp situation.

What you're doing sounds exactly like what the original Stans instructions suggested doing. Worked for me for a year or so before I switched first to Eclipse strips then Stans rims. It does work better with proper strips, and is more diffiult to get a good seal without, but far from impossible. You just have to spend a bit longer getting the seal to work, and getting the tyre to seat in the first place is definitely harder (why I built my homemade compressor).

Why not just use ghetto method with bmx tubes? saves faffing.

Looking at the pictures are you using kenda tyres? the little ribbed bits on the tyre bead make them an absolute F**ker to seal even with a rim strip. try a tyre with a smooth bead , maxis go well and you should be sweet.

thanks for all the info. interesting 🙂
coffeeking, what rims are in that diagram? or is that basically the form of every rim?

yup, theyre kendas. got 2 X blue groove, and 2 X nevegals. i was just starting to think the same about those ribs 🙁

so i reckon to give myself the best chance of running tubeless, im gonna have to get rid of them, and get some that are easier to get a seal.

any suggestions for good xc tyres, thatll work well with ghetto?

Sorry Sadex, an significant point!

I just use a flat layer of insulating tape on the bottom surface of the rim. As coffeeking says, this makes the rim diameter slightly larger, which is why the tyre fits tighter.

I use the layer of tape under the split inner tube, but if you put it under you're yellow stans rim strip/layer of gaffer tape etc it would probably work just the same.

Because the tyre is a tighter fit, there is nowhere for the air to seap out during inflation, which means less of your effort is wasted pumping air out of the big gaps between tyre and rim. i reckon it stops burps as there is no slack left in the tyre, which prevents it shifting on the rim and lifting at the side.

thing is, i never damage tyres and seem to be quite light on wheels too, so I don't think i really ride hard enough to test the burping theory.

edit: ADvantages work well tubeless, and the new non-UST rubber queen looks to be a winner if you can afford it, think it has a similar tread pattern to the Kendas too.

I have 1 pukka UST wheel and 3 BMX tube “Ghetto” wheels all working flawlessly for some time now with various tyres, but I have settled on Speccy “2Bliss” tyres for now as a sort of halfway house; lighter/cheaper than most UST, maybe not quite as chunky in the sidewalls..

I have also in the past done a 24” non UST tyre using the Ghetto method, it worked OK…

Some tyres do take a while to seal and I have found myself bunging in as much as150ml for the initial inflation on some…. I generally only puff them up to 50-60 psi and do the wheel shaking dance for a good long while, might too much back pressure just push the latex through the holes rather than sealing (Only and idea, not an actual observation)?

Some tyres are just a total bastard to get sealed, have you considered literally painting the latex on to the inside surface of problem tyres and letting it set prior to inflation (Again just a thought, never tried it myself), or using a tube to seat half the bead?

maxis high rollers go well with a tubeless set up, don't use schwalbe tyres, they go on great but have a disturbing tendency to fail on the bead and blow of the rim at random intervals, even on stans rims. All bonty tyres go on very well. Good luck!

Cookeaa, using an inner tube to half seat it worked a treat on a WTB laser disc of mine. the rim had extra big shoulders that the tyre wouldn't pop over, pumping it up with an inner tube, then taking the inner tube out to leave one side still un-seated made it much easier.

'Twas just a diagramatic view of a tyre/rim combo I threw together just then to explain the concept, most rims follow the same basic shape though.

don't use schwalbe tyres, they go on great but have a disturbing tendency to fail on the bead and blow of the rim at random intervals, even on stans rims

gulp, little albert and stans rim is what im using on my 29er 🙂

I use the layer of tape under the split inner tube, but if you put it under you're yellow stans rim strip/layer of gaffer tape etc it would probably work just the same.

or on top of yellow tape? (mines already on :-))

coffeeking, im mebbes being a bit thick here, but am i right in thinking LH side of diagram is a loose fitted tyre. and RH side is tyre when its inflated?
so all this talk of 'bulking up the rims with extra tape' etc is raise the diameter of the profile? so the bead presses into it?
i always thought the bead would be squashed against the side of the rim rather than the bottom. maybe thats why im struggling to understand some of the comments 🙂

thanks

The bead is squashed against the side of the rim.

When you're inflating, all the air that hisses out is hissing out of the gap betwixt rim and tyre. If you build up the bottom of the rim, so the bead is pulled tight against it, there is less of a gap for this air to hiss out around. It would also help with your original problem as there is less of a gap, and therefor less of a hole, for the sealant to try and fill.

so i reckon to give myself the best chance of running tubeless, im gonna have to get rid of them, and get some that are easier to get a seal.

any suggestions for good xc tyres, thatll work well with ghetto?

As I suggested in your thread the other day, using Kenda's was likely to be a recipe for disaster!

When running tubeless, go with what's proven… Or risk having a total faff!

What's proven is as follows…

Full UST tyres (any make, they're all designed to seal properly)
Maxxis
Continental
Bontrager
Schwalbe

Personally I've only used a full UST setup, or Maxxis/Bontrager tyres on a rimstrip (or ghetto) setup… All have sealed fine.

As has been said before though, the ease in which you can fit your tyre is totally disproportionate to how well the tyre seals. Fitting my Bontrager ACX tubeless ready tyres onto a Ghetto setup on my current Mavic EN521 ris was a testament to my enduring patience. I think it took me the best part of 30 minutes to fit each tyre onto the rim (I'm not kidding!), but when I jumped on my trackpump, they went up instantly. And they've stayed up ever since!

youre right mboy, you did warn me. but i got no others, so thought id take a chance with the equipment i got. yes, i was quite ready for a 'fail', but it was just baffling me how there were lots of ickle holes and bubbles, that just werent sealing, even when covered in sealant. that was the baffling bit 🙂

next step will be different tyres and ghetto tube i reckon.

unless someone gonna sell me some cheap stans rims 🙂

I used Maxxis tyres and Joe's rim strips. No problem apart from the front tyre going flat after a couple of days, but I poured more sealant in, pumped it up, no problems since.

you might be alright with little alberts, they have a better/stronger than nics and ralphs, both of which make great tubeless setups, but all have failed at random intervals, usually get about 6 months safely before it turns into sealant roulette (bit like russian roulette but the looser ends up in a tree, faceplanting into gravel or trying to get a 2.25's worth or sealant out a leather upholstered eastate when one let go on the way home form a race, poo'd my pants and ended coated in stans and looking like a bukkake star)