I’ve been working on a photographic project for a client which involves taking panoramic photos from the tops of mountains. Spent all of last week running up and down 22 peaks of varying size with a camera and tripod.

The client is very keen to wrap things up and I still have four peaks left to do – they’re all pretty big and I’m guessing there’ll be snow / ice involved – one of them is the Lecht (ski centre, so obviously I’ll do that on skis if there’s any snow 🙂 ).

I’m fit and a fairly experienced hill walker, but not a mountaineer by any stretch – I can use a map and compass (and GPS!), take a bearing and tend not to get lost too often! I have a few decent set of boots but am now wondering about such things as crampons and ice axes.

The axe would probably be used as a walking stick as much as anything else – what’s a good size for a 5′ 11″ chap?

Is it worth splashing out on a decent set of crampons? Or are those rubbery, ‘snap-on’ things any cop?

Probably too early to be bothering with crampons – the snow that falls in the next few days won’t have consolidated enough to necessitate them.

Take an axe though, if only as a walking aid.

Walking axes tend to be longer than climbing axes I use a DMM Cirque which comes in various lengths to reduce the need to stoop.
Boots should be nice and stiff for step kicking or edging on.

Which peaks – that would probably make a difference, I’m sure people on here will know them.

Crampons and ice axe are useful if you know how to use them. Size wise, I think you’re supposed to put your hand down by your side, then it should just comfortably touch the ground, or some such test like that – I dunno how much difference size makes though.

If you’re getting okay pay for the work, I’d maybe consider whether it’d be easiest rather than buying all the gear, to just pay one of the local outdoor centres to take you up – axes and crampons are pretty expensive, you could borrow gear from them, and spend the money on a guide. You’d probably get up and down quicker with a guide also. Although having said that, it is nice having the gear.

The are some crampons that work on pretty much any boot which are okay (some people even wear them on fell shoes), can’t remember the make, but they are expensive. Rubbery snap-on things are great for icy pavements, but I doubt they’d be up to much up a mountain, at least the ones we have. Bear in mind that some very rigid crampons will only work on certain types of mountaineering boots, so be sure you take your boots to the shop when you buy the crampons.

Only thing that scares me about mountain walking in winter: having to take bearings in complete fog. You’ve got to be confident about bearings and pacing sometimes, particularly on places with big cliffs and where there is snow, so you can’t always tell where you’re walking.

Joe

The snow is starting to consolidate, was on the plateau today with some folks doing nav parctice. Could of done with spikey feet a few times.

OK.

What’s the coverage like? Snow level?

I’ve been working on a photographic project for a client which involves taking panoramic photos from the tops of mountains.

I want this job!

Nice warm down jacket, sun cream and shades by the look of them today. Glorious weather and early snow cover.

Some great advice, thanks very much. The pay does make it all worthwhile but not sure about naming peaks or hiring a guide (at least on the forum) as these projects can be quite sensitive. I’ve done all the peaks local to the development – the remaining ones are for the long view.

Having said that, the guide idea could be a good one – I’ve been at the top of Helvellyn in a white out and that was pretty terrifying. The only slight problem might be that I need 50 miles visibility (from the top of a Scottish mountain in November 😀 ) so I have to decide very early in the morning that the weather window will be there – very short notice for a guide….

Grum – it’s bl00dy hard work but when the weather’s good it’s a dream job. But that has to be balanced against the hours sitting behind boulders at altitude wondering if the horizontal sleet is ever going to stop – sometimes it doesn’t, and I only get paid if I get the shots!

Pesonally without experience I wouldnt want to be walking in the Scottish mountains at this time of year.

Well, I’m not entirely without experience but am sensible enough to realise where my shortcomings lie…. And as I said in the OP I’ve just spent a week raking about in Scottish mountains so amn’t totally helpless 🙂

EDIT; and just for entertainment’s sake – I had a long chat with a ghillie about a photo I took of an odd looking, very fresh spoor I found on a rock up a mountain. It was larger than a human poo, very black and full of deer hair. I spent the next few hours looking over my shoulder…

I showed the pic to the ghillie and he spent over an hour telling me about all the big cats he and his colleagues have seen over the years. He did smell a bit of whisky though 😉

Walking Axes are to stop you sliding down the side of a mountain if you slip – they are not walking sticks. Shorter the better. Learn to self arrest (take a course) or carrying one is pointless.

http://www.tiso.com/news/clinics/winter-skills-courses-2011/

these are good value.

Cheers for the link Chris – I will look into that but time is pressing…. I usually carry a walking pole which converts into a monopod (for photography) just for river crossings, climbing, uneven ground etc.

I wanted an axe to stop myself unintentionally glissading down a munro but thought it might as well double as a walking pole, given the weight!

Walking Axes are to stop you sliding down the side of a mountain if you slip – they are not walking sticks. Shorter the better.

Err no. Short axes and hammers are for technical climbing not walking. A longer axe is used for walking.

A spot of lunch. A bottle of water. A waterproof jacket. A map. Your mobile. A sense of adventure tempered with a healthy respect. Cojones.

Ideally you’d want to do a course of some kind, but the BMC has a very good instructional DVD called ‘Winter Essentials’ that’ll give you some of the basic information you need. I think there are some clips from it on their web site, http://www.thebmc.co.uk.

Its quite early for stuff to be in winter nick, which mountains do you have to climb?

If we are talking about mountain walking and not climbing, Chrisdb is very wrong. Short is obviously best for climbing but too many walkers use them because they look “cooler” (think long travel hardtail for xc racing) when a longer walking axe is far more functional. The axe element of a short climbing axe is set at an angle best for its primary ice climbing function and whilst it will work for arrest, the shallow angle on a walking axe is better as that is its only purpose.

A duvet jacket and bothy bag would be up there in my list of must have kit. Also a bit of a fan of salopete style waterproof overtrousers for that sort of weather – great when sunny and snow on the ground without a waterproof top & nice to have an overlap when prating around in the snow at other times.

Winter walking in the Cairngorms – what do I need?

An experienced companion???

When are you doing it?

Some school girls and a few bin liners

I’ve done all the peaks local to the development

Sounds ominous. Hope Mr.Trump isn’t planning another golf course up there!

or maybe a huge wind farm in the middle of the Cairngorms??

cuckoo – it’s nothing that nasty I promise! BWD – I’ll go have a look at that – I need help and fast! Druidh – it’ll be during the first couple of weeks in November, weather permitting. As I mentioned above, I’m not really at liberty to divulge the peaks on an open forum – there’s no massive secrecy really, but I have to consider the client.

So it looks like I may need a longish ‘walking axe’ and perhaps a set of crampons? Down jacket would be nice but I do have a budget – base layer, fleeces, winstopper gilets and army goretex should be fine!

Definitely go to a proper shop to get the crampons to make sure they will fit your boots.

I didn’t know the Lecht had a ‘peak’.

Which peaks do you need to ascend?

This time of year there’s no predicting the weather or the underfoot conditions. Last winter we were skiing at CG in November. I’ve skied at the Lecht on 26 October one year (in deep powder too).

I would prepare for reasonable conditions with suitable clothing, good boots with suitable crampons and a walking axe. You should be able to hire stuff in Aviemore/Braemar.

Make sure your nav. is up to scratch. If it looks hairy, abort.

And the cat thing might have something in it… maybe…

The axe length thing is personal preference really and a bit of an ongoing debate – the thinking behind a shortish mountaineering axe, around 50cm or so, is that when you’re traversing steep slopes and plunging the axe with your uphill hand, like you do, the head of the axe is at a comfortable height. With a longer axe, on steep slopes, the head of the axe can be way too high.

The cons of that are that on flat ground and ridges, the axe won’t reach the ground so you can’t use it as a walking stick, then again, if you want a walking stick, trekking poles work better.

Anyway… for walking use, you want an axe with a pick that’s capable of self arrest use – you can self-arrest with a reverse curve climbing axe, but it’s more difficult as the pick tends to grab – regardless of the shaft length.

I’m around 5’10” and use a 50cm mountaineering/walking axe and personally wouldn’t go above 55cm – I’ve used a 45cm axe before now, but that was slightly too short – my climbing axes are 45cm. But anyway, it’s all personal preference and if people are happier with 65cm axes, then I’m not going to argue about it.

If you’re going out up there at this time of year you want to ask yourself “If I got stuck out overnight have I enough kit/food/clothes/experience to survive the night”. Doesn’t necessarily mean taking a tent and sleeping bag, but does mean at least one of those temporary shelters and plenty warm/dry clothes.

U-R – contact me off-forum if you want.

Fwiw, I would recommend that you do not start buying a lot of Winter gear without knowing how to use it properly. I have seen too many idiotic falls ny folk not used to wearing crampons.

Err no. Short axes and hammers are for technical climbing not walking. A longer axe is used for walking.

No. Climbing Axes, which are very different in shaft and pick design, are used for climbing. We are talking about walking axes which come in varying different lengths. Length alone is not the difference.

If we are talking about mountain walking and not climbing, Chrisdb is very wrong. Short is obviously best for climbing but too many walkers use them because they look “cooler” (think long travel hardtail for xc racing) when a longer walking axe is far more functional. The axe element of a short climbing axe is set at an angle best for its primary ice climbing function and whilst it will work for arrest, the shallow angle on a walking axe is better as that is its only purpose.

I am not wrong, just expressing an opinion on preferred (walking) axe length. BadlyWiredDog puts the ‘length is personal preference’ point more eloquently than I did 🙂

I find that long axes are unwieldy and harder to self arrest with as it’s not as easy to get your body weight over them. See how many instructors carry an 80cm walking axe – doubt you’ll find one.

55cm FTW. This is my current favourite http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-gb/shop/climb/ice-axes-piolets/raven

If you can map read, use a compass and use a GPS, then I don’t think you have any worries. Presumably, you’re only going out if it’s a decent day, in order to get the shots. Just get a wind and weather report, the MWIS ones are usually good, and check the SAIS report. Then just do a bit of research for appropriate routes to the summits.
As a first axe, I’d say a walking axe with +ve curved pick and around 55cm-70cm shaft length. unless you intend to take up winter walking, hire one or buy on ebay. You can probably find out on the internet how to use an ice axe or buy ‘mountain craft and leadership’ by Eric Langmuir, which has everything you need to know about walking in the hills.

u-r – back at the PC again…

A few things to consider…

If there is any snow at all, your progress will be slower. Couple this with the shorter days (winter and further North) and you need to not be hanging around too much.

You should also be carrying extra gear (clothing, food, axe etc). You’ll likely need a bigger pack, which will be heavier and will slow you down a little. And then read the last point again.

Depending on what the photos are for, you are going to be very dependent on the weather. You should be prepared to cancal/postpone at the last moment. Most hill accidents in Scotland involve English tourists who are determined to walk whatever the weather. It’s not that the locals are more clever, it’s just that they can afford to bale and re-schedule better.

The weather can also change remarkably quickly – especially at altitude. Couple that with snow cover and you had best be experienced at micro-navigation (without a GPS).

Down jacket (or a Buffalo) would be excellent for wearing while stopped – as long as you can keep it dry.

If you re-consider having a companion, I only work 3 days a week, so could possibly be available at reasonably short notice. I’m not exactly in the first flush of youth, but I shouldn’t hold you back much.

Tehre is no point in having an axe unless you know how to use it.

Crampons allow you to go higher and further in snow and ice. Teh axe is a safety aid.

Having said that I went up in the mountains in winter for years without an axe or crampons – but it limits haw far you go sometimes. Then I got an axe and foe the last 20 yrs have used crampons as well.

If you are unsure than perhaps a guide would be useful. around 30 people a year die on the mountains

Truly grateful for all the advice. As for timing, I’ll be staying very nearby with no real time constraints (as long as I can get the images within two weeks) but have no intention of putting myself at risk.

It takes me about 20 minutes to get the panoramic image on summits. From previous (bitter) experience I’ve learned to layer up as soon as the summit approaches and the wind starts coming over the top of the hill. It can feel very counter-intuitive to put on loads of clothes when you’re sweating buckets but I don’t move around much once I’m up there and it gets very chilly, very quickly. It’s also not-so-easy to control tripod-head movements / camera controls with mitts so fingers get numb pretty quick.

druidh – thanks for the offer – may well be in touch once I’ve confirmed details with the client.

By ‘eck! – it’ll be winter soon!!
DSC00252 by druidh_dubh, on Flickr

Nowt like snow up to yer oxters

User removed – of course to a great extent it depends which hills

Can’t wait

The Saddle – as storm clouds gather by Hoppy66, on Flickr

Make sure your nav. is up to scratch. If it looks hairy, abort

good tip that. The big plateaux in bad weather make hellvellyn seem like a girl school outing. Watch conditions like a hawk and have an exit plan and you’ll be fine.

I use a 70mm walky axe as a support on steeper snow, to cut the odd step and to arrest. Arresting is surprisingly tricky and worth practice. I have these 10 point crampons which have a bendy bar in the middle to cope with a bit of boot flex. They are tricky to strap on and have been known to come off at awkward moments. I’m glad of the axe then! But when they work they are ace for icy conditions.

I’ve not done much in the snow, but would like to get into it some more – managed the rather gentle and easy Eich last year with just boots but anything more and i’d be looking for spikes.
Beinn Eich by j.buckle, on Flickr[img]http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4071/4323284015_3e05bf72b3.jpg[/img]

I love the Cairngorms in Winter – beautiful place:

Fiacaill Ridge by brf, on Flickr

Fiacaill ridge by brf, on Flickr

Having done a couple of course at Glenmore the recommendation is to use a short axe (50 cm or less) even for walking. The reason being the if you have to self a arrest for can not get you whole body over the length of the shaft and you will have a bit poking out to the side.

+1 for having someone experienced with you.

As for ice axes/crampons – if you’re not planning on spending lots of time in the hills in winter then you can hire them for not huge amounts. Size of axe isn’t that important, but a walking axe instead of a climbing axe would be advisable. Make sure the crampons fit your boots properly BEFORE you get out on the hill – take your boots to the shop with you.

And again, take someone experienced with you.

Bit of a novice when it comes to winter climbing, but I plan on doing some proper training with a friend who is a qualified and experienced guide. It’d be great to do some more stuff like this. Bring on the snow.