[Closed] Seeing damage being done by riders

Does it actually matter?

Yes - you end up with huge eroded scars many metres wide. I have seen it happen

So? Trails have always done that. It's in their nature.

Would you like to concrete the banks of rivers to keep them nice and straight and narrow?

@ TJ - ..and does that matter?

It matters if the damage leads to conflict with the national park authority who then block access

The next step is bound to be bikes being banned from the paths

You also end up with crap trails cos people can't ride over some rocks.

Do you want trails to degenerate to huge eroded scars? Look ruddy ugly

so do you but you insist on posting pics of your lovely hair 😛

Yes it really does matter. If society didn't think so then large amounts of time, money and effort would not be spent upon putting in measures to rectify and/ or prevent trail damage, be it by feet, hooves or wheels.

In my opinion not addressing the issue is short sighted. Considering that it is not worth addressing is worse.

Sustainable is the word we need to use.

Do you want trails to degenerate to huge eroded scars? Look ruddy ugly

unfortunately there is large majority of riders/bikers/ramblers that are completely ignorant (or they just don't give a toss) of the potential impact their past time can have on the environment that they enjoy being in. I think some of it may be down to the sheep like trail centre mentality where you just follow the wheel marks of others, so if someone rides wide or cuts a corner the herd follow and snakey singletrack paths become great galumphing choss pits

completely ignorant (or they just don't give a toss)

See posts above for evidence.

Are they technically interesting huge eroded scars?

Not in this case - we're talking WLT in the Peak, no?

we're talking a lot of places unto the peak, wlt and north America are both examples of this.

it got nob all to do with trail centres, I think its the huge increase of bikers. a large chunk of whom don't have the skill or care to ride over / through, they are just out to get some fresh air etc.

my girlfriend often rides round rocks or puddles no matter how many times I tell her not to but she'd prefer to stay clean and not risk falling of. for her and I expect many other leisure cyclists it's not something they really consider much.

I've often stopped and dug out the side of puddles to let them drain but I think we just have to accept that things will look a mess and then they'll get re surfaced.

Kill all the sheep! They're the one's to blame for the mass erosion of tracks, and then ban everybody from going on by putting 20ft high barbed wire fences up and never use the country side again! Dam ice age was to blame for eroding it last time!!! I feel so guilty i'm never guna ride my bike on a footpath again, im off to church now to ask for forgiveness! Huh 🙁

[i]im off to church now to ask for forgiveness[/i]

wot tyres for the graveyard?

there's no place for beginners or people wanting to ride "to get some fresh air" or people who don't want to fall off in cycling dammit! anyone wanting to take up riding should ask permission from people who have never caused a single bit of erosion first, then follow all the rules set out by these magical non-eroding people that dont exist.

beginners shouldn't be allowed out in nature fullstop!

hell lets ban fat people from riding as the friction they cause will be greater than skinny people on the trails.

tarmac should be the only surface people are allowed to ride on and fences higher than the sun should be erected either side of the tarmac to ensure nobody strays from the approved path.

i'll be running for president of nature soon, who wants to vote for me?

EarnestTrackWorld strikes again!

And people wonder why the world is in such a state with attitudes like this are so prevalent.

It amuses me that all these gnarly off-road riders, who boast of revelling in all conditions, will do anything to avoid riding through a puddle.

I admit that if I clean my bike (altho tha ardly hever appens) the next ride I might ride round a bit of mud.

Ironically, the centre of a puddle often has the firmest base. So put on mudguards and sealskin socks and stop widening the trails.

Maybe access rights for cyclists should be opened up to reduce the concentration of riders on the trails, spreading the erosion out, thus reducing it?

It amuses me that all these gnarly off-road riders, who boast of revelling in all conditions, will do anything to avoid riding through a puddle.

This. I revel in riding through puddles myself. It's one of the best bits about mountain biking: Getting wet and filthy and not caring about the state of you.

Mansonsoul, I like your thinking.

I think the whole erosion thing is blown out of all proportion.

You want to see some erosion? Go to Wales and look at the 5m-wide track a farmer has put up the hillside. Should it bother us? No - it's his land, his sheep, we are priviledged to be able to walk/cycle there. Or get caught in a storm on a hillside and watch the whole thing landslide down into the valley - that's erosion, not some little track that's a bit wider than it used to be.

erode more land over a longer period of time you mean ?

People should just ride where the trail goes. I'm fed up with the trails in my local woods getting wider and wider because some can't even roll over a couple of tree roots.

Kev

Well, when everyone's finished being sanctimonious and self righteous and theatrical, I'd have thought that riding inevitably causes trail damagw, but in cases like Whinstone Lee Tor, where there's a relatively durable, but tricky rocky line flanked by soft moorland, which gets chewed up easily, it's arguably about finding a way of educating riders to stay on the line in an unobtrusive way.

The Peak Park already does some great work with dog owners - Paws On The Moors - and has a code of conduct for 4x4s and trail riders, maybe it's time for them along with the mtb media and mountain bikers generally to look at ways of encouraging riders to behave in a sustainable way on the trails.

That could mean a mountain biking code, leafleting, educational notices at the bottom of vulnerable trails and maybe subtle trail improvements in strategic places to guide riders back onto the more sustainable line.

Some of that smacks of awful big brotherism and part of me just thinks screw it, no thanks. And the bigger picture might be that if access were opened up, there'd be less traffic on a relatively small number of bridleways, but I'd rather see some sort of educational campaign designed to change riders' behaviour, than wholesale trail repairs that change the character of the riding.

There's a few practical things you can do. Where I see lines being redrawn to avoid the established path I often place a few smooth branches parallel with the direction of travel on the new line, amazing how quickly it steers people back onto line, same with the odd few logs here and there. Before anyone gets on the high horse I don't block trails people have built but where it's obvious lines are being widened to avoid mud or the odd root there is a fair bit you can do to encourage people back onto the trail. In the same way stopping to do a bit to help a pool drain away is a good idea.

you would have thought that just some gentle education and a few words of advice on a popular forum would be enough.. maybe not though..

liscensing for off-road cyclists..?
It sounds heinous and big brother like and I had never in my wildest nightmares envisioned the situation ever getting this dire..

but after reading some of the blinkered and selfish responses on here it's plain to see that as the popularity of MTB is increasing.. so it appears, are the number of ignorant and arrogant morons who, even when faced with the voice of reason and experience refuse to acknowledge that there may be an issue..

the sneering and cat-calling like tory back-benchers.. especially from folk organising large scale forum rides is sickening.. what a rude and depressing awakening on this beautiful sunny morning.. as I contemplate a ride later.. in the National Park that I live in..

yes mtb is a beautiful and wholesome past time.. but it does come with responsibilities..

[url=

piece on erosion...[/url]

wow

sickening? because its plainly obvious that my posts on this thread so far have been serious?

if it helps lower your blood pressure then rest assured that i ride through what's in front of me, mud, puddles, rocks... i'm a considerate rider thank you. but if mrsconsequence chose a slightly wider line because she's not confident that the puddle in front of her will not contain something that might cause her to hurt herself then who am i to judge her?

i'm at risk of taking this forum too seriously, might check back on the thread later but for now i'm off to daydream about riding this evening.

joolsburger, not too many branches about in the middle of the Peak but a good idea / point all the same. I've done similar up at Wharncliffe and it does seem to make a difference.

Any trail used by any person for on foot/bike/horse/etc. causes trail damage/erosion.

Does this mean all trail users should:

1) just shrug and ignore the fact and let it turn into an eroded motorway with all the visual, sociological, ecological and geological impacts that result.

or

2) act to minimise the impact of our actions to help provide trails that will last, won't be as much of an eyesore, keep land managers happy, protect possibly vulnerable ecological areas and annoy other trail users less?

Are some peoples heads so up their own arses that option 1 is better than option 2?

I still think a Peaks Pootle trail maintenance ride is a good idea.

I was thinking it would be hard to find branches in the peaks I expect the rocks are mostly not for moving either...

Am I missing something?
Rode WLT a couple of weeks ago and it didn't look badly eroded to me.
A single short patch of "creep" near the top of the steeper bit if memory serves me corrrectly. Certainly no worse than a popular footpath frequented by large numbers of walkers.

For the vast majority of its length, its still a cracking piece of singletrack.

To the OP - was this the bridleway to Whinstone Lee Tor?

I agree that there are too many 'mincers' that ride round the rough bits. I think the worst that will happen with that particular trail is that wooden / wire fences will be put up (similar to those at the junction of hope cross / jaggers clough / blackley hay). Most likely though is that the natural line will drift to one side or the other and the 'less ridden line' will revert to grass.

I walked up this path the other week and was surprised by the number of bikers, however the numbers are probably typical of other bridleways in the area.

Puddles? oh that old arguement? riding through puddles robs you of momentum! **** that I say! I'll ride round them every time if there's a faster hardpack alternative, jump them if there's a suitable take off, simply hop small/medium ones and for large ones that are surounded by soft tyre grabby mud I find it best to manual through them if possible.

The Earth was clearly designed (by nature or your god if you're that deluded) to erode and evolve whether from the weather, natural acts or by humans/animals, scars are par for the course. Most tral centres I've been to have trails built on existing natural tracks that were there way before mtbers rode them. is Glentress for example regarded as a network of huge ugly scars?

People should just ride where the trail goes. I'm fed up with the trails in my local woods getting wider and wider because some can't even roll over a couple of tree roots.

WLT?

So what's worse? A group of ten infrequent riders going "off the line" a bit on their monthly trip to the Peak District or me riding almost every day "on the line" but still causing erosion?

How much erosion is allowable? Should we be issued with "erosion permits"? Can I use my wife's "erosion allowance"? Should there be an "erosion trading market" where frequent [s]flyers[/s] riders buy permits from the more sedentary?

Maybe the Peak Park Authority should take "at risk" or "vulnerable" trails into care?

It's all bollocks isn't it? If you're out there doing it then you're part of the problem (if there is a problem) - it's just a matter of degree.

wow

Oh.. the guilt! I'm off to scrub my tyres and then back to my local woods to replace the mud I stole earlier.

Id argue the peak authority does take trails into care, then people moan about trail sanitisation. I must admit I'm surprised at the response to this thread, not for the piss taking name calling posts, but from the blinkered and short sightedness of many on here.

Yes I'm talking about wlt. Somewhere I, as a beginner, learned how to ride over rocks.

I can see it one day getting either fenced in, or sanitised. I think staying on the gritstone is a small price to pay to avoid that.

A peaks pootle maintenance day? I'd have to have a chat with the NPA but I like the idea.

I think Simon from 18 organised one. check the ride the peak website

I'm quite shocked that a fair proportion of people on this thread don't seem to give a sh*t about the consequence of their actions.
It's been said several times above that the consequences for mountain biking outside of trail centres could be severe if we don't think about riding responsibly and avoiding destruction where we can. ie: we gift it to those who don't want us in the hills...
Oh and I gave up riding in Surrey Hills partly because what used to be great singletrack like BKB got straight-lined and widened from people not sticking to the trail and really just lost so much of its appeal. So thoughtless riding ruins the quality of the ride too...

Oh, are we talking about the bridleway off WLT?
I've not ridden that in years, so if that's what we're talking about then I must take my comment back. The BW may be eroded for all I know.

I was referring to the cheeky footpath off the front, which I don't consider to be badly eroded at all. Ironically 😆

I'm quite shocked that a fair proportion of people on this thread don't seem to give a sh*t about the consequence of their actions.

+1.

Although I guess it means that I am justified in thinking that there are many selfish, thoughtless, unaware idiots out there. What cost to you is it to ride responsibly? No one here is saying stop riding, just that maybe we should accept that trail use causes damage and users should try to minimise it rather than accepting the damage and therefore not caring tuppence, or in some cases actually appearing to revel in the destruction.

Pretty much every ride I go on I stop and repair or fill in a bit of tyre worn trail, takes 5 minutes at most per ride. I know others who I ride with also do this. As a result my local trails are in good nick, narrow, etc. All users stay happy.

But I guess this is one of those debates where those who care will continue to care and those who don't will remain an uncaring part of the problem and yet still complain when trails are shut, sanitised, etc. No action is without it's consequences and personal and societal responsibility are things that some apparently need to reacquaint themselves with.

Sigh......

The cheeky path off the front is very definitely eroded compared to it's condition 3 or 4 years back. There's also a whole load of variations that have appeared further down, all across the hillside.

I came across some vids online of some local DHers riding it, and I can see how it got like that. Much foot out, back wheel locked, riding. Not really appropriate for a cheeky trail in a National Park. Keep that kind of stuff for the race course please!

Eckythump.... ssh!

Nice tags too folks.

after reading some of the blinkered and selfish responses on here it's plain to see that as the popularity of MTB is increasing.. so it appears, are the number of ignorant and arrogant morons who, even when faced with the voice of reason and experience refuse to acknowledge that there may be an issue..

Societ is brimming with ignorant and arrogant morons who, even when faced with the voice of reason and experience refuse to acknowledge that there may be an issue.

Unfortunately, more and more of these morons are riding bikes.

And they still (surprise surprise), even when faced with the voice of reason and experience refuse to acknowledge that there may be an issue.

Some interesting quotes on this topic from an article in latest CTC magazine:

Ian Warby 'The rights of access in Scotland make sense...spreading access has to be essential when looking at long term trail management'

Richard Fox of Fix The Fells: mountain bikers do not cause exceptional levels of erosion compared with people on foot, so long as they demonstrate some care and common sense'

I kind of think that last point is spot on

Well said there Mr Shackelton, well said.

I honestly don't get a lot of the folk on here's attitude to riding in the countryside. Surely when you go out there, some of your awareness must appreciate your surroundings? Why wouldn't you want to keep those beautiful landscapes in as pristine condition as possible, simply by riding a bit more responsibly?

I've seen local trails getting wider and wider as folk ride around, rather than through or over obstacles. I've even seen trees uprooted to provide 'better' lines. Better lines for who? Some of those trees had so much of my DNA ingrained in their bark, we were practically relatives! 😀

I don't suppose a lot of you will get what I'm on about, but for me mountain biking is as much about getting out in to the wilds and appreciating this gorgeous little island we're on, as it is about getting from the top to the bottom of the local hills without dabbing too many times.

B.

No dabbing beagle boy cos that causes erosion too!!!

This argument has been raging for about fifty years, since well before anybody invented mountain bikes. This is why the footpaths in popular walking areas like the Lakes are now well surfaced with rocks and steps all the way over the mountains. In the beginning mountaineers objected to footpath repairs but now that they've seen that it can be done sympathetically, I think most objections have died out.

Luckily trail centres exist for MTB riders who lack imagination or the ability to use a map and find decent mountain trails. In the national parks it's said that 70% of visitors never venture more than 100 yards from the car park so if the same situation prevails with MTB trail centres it will keep most of the muppets off the wild trails where erosion really is a problem.

In the long term you don't need to worry because teachers and outdoor pursuit leaders are complaining that kids are unfit and don't want to go caving, climbing, cycling etc. My son's school cycling club gets between 2 and 5 kids for its monthly rides, which is pathetic. It won't be more than 20 years before those trails are reverting to nature.

I made a short film about riding responsibly and respecting nature. You can watch it [url=

I think some one already said it up before but the best way is to use logs or whatever to steer people off the rat runs.

eroded compared to it's condition 3 or 4 years back. There's also a whole load of variations that have appeared further down, all across the hillside.

granted... comparatively speaking, there is some creep but not IMHO to the extent that your average walker/rider would consider it a problem [EDIT] on the fp we spoke about [/EDIT].
Probably about on a parr with the sheep deciding to take a new route this year.

I'm not being dismissive of the issue per se, just questioning at what point it ceases to be variation and becomes a problem.
When our local fell-top paths become slimy porridge pots, folk don't ride 'em because they're not much fun like that, not because they have suddenly become eco-aware. A few months later, nature has recovered and the trafic increases again. To that extent I honestly think it's fairly self-regulating in most places.

I think a lot of people choose not to ride certain areas when they are in a wet and muddy condition. Others don’t.

Just because you can ride the 'rocks' and others cant and choose to go round them doesn’t really matter.

The route of the problem is that a lot of areas of the Peak District are very susceptible to damage during the winter months so riding there exaggerates it (so does heavy use by walkers and horse for that matter).

Like a say a lot of people choose to self-regulate and not go to these areas during certain months as there are plenty of other areas.

I remember Pook saying to you on planning to take one of your Pootles - so maybe 20 people across Cut Throat Bridge in the middle of a wet winter period - that a better route could be considered due to the damage you would cause.

To be met with the response - 'I stick to the main path, rather than going round the rocks, so its fine' even though that main path in the middle of winter is thick and deep mud.

Cut Throat Bridge used to self-repair itself in the summer, but it’s been getting worse (wider and deeper and more rutted) now for the past 3 years, as people choose to ride there when the potential for erosion is at its highest.

I never tke anything posted on stw seriously. no matter how important the topic of discussion it soon devolves in to (quite entertaining) baiting, trolling, insulting nonsense. keeps our therapy bills down im sure!

however, like many on here i ride the peak regularly. lots of it is a mess, some of which bikes have undoutably contributed to. think how smug and better than everyone else we could all act if we fixed some of that damage? that must appeal to the stw massive!

IMO+E, some of the best and fastest riders out there leave very little trace, yet still contribute to access rights and trail maintenance. there seem to be a lot of 'wannabes' who think its more about looking fast and ragged rather than actually riding fast and smooth. they seem so keen on projecting this rad image of themselves that they will not only ride like a twonk but then come and here and post like a twonk in the deluded hope that everyone else will think they are cool and hardcore because they dont care about anything other than being sick and rad, dude.

thats my tuppence worth. i agree with a lot of the comments above about guiding riders on to the original path, doing a bit of fixing during a ride and organising a peak pootle trail fix day. i dont think it would be a bad thing for the park authority to put fences up to steer people on to the intended track. i also completely agree with the riding of footpaths. im a bit confused really.

Rik, true, true - but the pootle route was changed in response to your suggestion, and I stand by my comment that the main wlt path stands up well to winter. The chicken runs round the side not so. As I couldn't guarantee everyone stuck to the hard pack, I didn't risk it.

You'll find me in complete agreement with you on this one.

No matter how good you are - you still leave a trace when you try and ride up a trail covered in deep mud in the middle of winter when there are mud free/less trails a couple of miles away where you can ride and have prob more fun.

Its all about self-regulation rather than bans IMO

Rik, you would trust everyone to self regulate? I really like the idea but then i come on here...

Riding all year round in the surrey hills area I saw a 'cycle' of horses chewing up the bridleways over winter and mountain bikes flattening them back out again as it dried up.

On bridleways where bikes did not frequent the bridleways would just stay a mashed up mess of unevenness throughout the year.

Riders would often take their horses around the outside of a bridleway because it was such a mess because of the horses. And in some areas a wooden footpath has had to be built to the side of the bridleway so it remained passable on foot, as the bridleway descended in height due to erosion from the horses.

So should horses also be banned?

Who are you asking?

and who said anything about banning?

plus just cos someone else is causing problems doesn't make it right for people to add to them

So should horses also be banned?

Undoubtedly.

Although wiped out to extinction might be a better idea.

😉

Won't anybody think of the soil?

😥

My desk is covered in slobber ....ZZZZZzzzzzzz

Pook - fair enough

Slowrider - it's difficult I know. As a local rider you try your best even if that means that you are confined to half the number of trails during the winter. But were locals you cant expect the same from people who don't know the area or don't care. I was very dissapoint when the mk2 vertebrae graphics Dark Peak guide came out that it was exactly the same routes - it's got to be the most popular guide which tourists use - the trail on the whole have degraded so so much since the first guide, why not publish other routes to try and inform people of routes other than the honeypot sites?

Trail use causes erosion shocker!

There are far more riders around than 10 years ago. Irrespective of how sensible and careful they could be, there will be more impact.

I don't hold out much hope that 'educating the masses' will produce any material change on the ground. IMO & E its just a prelude to restricting access for a trail to recover, temporarily or otherwise.

De-regulating trail access will help with erosion by diluting over-use impact in some areas, but popular trails will always suffer excessive use and we'll be faced with the option of repairs, maintenance, armouring and re-instatement (who's going to pay for that?) or restriction of access via fences, board walks or similar, and alternative routes.

and does it really matter when we are overdue for the next ice age, which will be coming along when global warming shuts down the gulf stream.

When the glaciers come south they are't going to worry about sticking to the footpaths...

It was all predicted in "the day after tomorrow"

and everything is due to end next year anyway - 2012.

I think people are missing the point. It's not a trail use causes erosion thing, more a use of everything but the sodding trail causes long term problems that will affect everyone thing....

So all those fp's in Rivelin nicely self-regulate? We're all part of the problem just by being there.

Fact is everyone from all sports can be a bit silly and often people realise they aren't actually doing it.

Above WLT Bridleway there is a footpath along Dervwent edge. There is one section where the path, a very wide one at that with only small rocks, cuts a straight line across the moor. However because of these rocks people have taken to taking a longer route around this because its smoother, and most people appear to do this. This is evident in other areas where the surface is quite peaty.

What I think will happen on both the footpath and bridleways on WLT and Derwent Edge is that the old lines will revert to nature and the new lines will develop and change over time.

**** me!

😥

Just to add, horses cause more damage in the form of soil erosion than mtb. My ecology lecturer and I discussed this at length last year. Banning mtb from the bridle would be ridiculous for this point.

I think a little more information available to riders to understand their impact would help. I think putting a little money into developing trails (like a centre) help to both improve riding quality and reduce erosion.

I doubt any of it will revert to nature in our lifetime, its not like grass. peat and heather takes ages to grow back

Relatively speaking it will. On the section between Hope cross and the big 'junction' of bridelways on Win Hill they have fenced off the rabbit runs and the grass has re-established itself in the 3 or so years the fence has been up.

If you fence of moorland like that it gets wooded within 20 years - it certainly takes a surprisingly short time for erosion to disappear from view, even if it's still there underneath.

The areas being discussed were my regular riding area for years, but that was a decade and a half ago. On my very occasional visits back it's been clear that the level of traffic is so much higher on these trails than it used to be. Not just from bikes put all traffic in general.

Educating riders in riding responsibly and recognising when trails are at risk has to be an important step. Obviously it won't get to all riders, and it won't easily get to new riders, but the point is to make trail use in general be as sustainable as possible.

Years before I started mountain biking I used to get dragged up lakeland fells on a regular basis, back before the stone clad paths were built. The erosion on popular routes was amazing, worse than you though motorized traffic could create. Those routes now, many thousands of pounds later are no longer broad hillside scars, but they're also no longer the sort of trails they used to be. But they are sustainable trails for the traffic they get.

In this location, imposed regulation seems less likely than the rebuilding of paths to a susatinable (ie highly armoured) standard. I don't think anyone really wants that if it can be avoided. We need ot push to spread the load over a broader spectrum of the rights-of-way network, and we need to work to educate riders (and all users) on the impact they have. Wainwright probably did most for this cause in the Lakes, continually badgering his readers to stick to the line of the path, and not add yet another braided variation. We need to start to instill that sort of ethic in riders.

I also think the weather has a lot to answer for!!! 😐