[Closed] Sir Elton John receives the greatest gift of all!

Thats a bit mean and judgemental. There are loads of people who would make worse fathers, and some of them live on your street. Good luck to them and their new family ! Kid won't be short of fancy dress costumes when it gets older.

Don't judge. There's nothing to say the child won't be happy, loved and content.

I'm sure the child will be much loved but at 62 it's a tad selfish

What's wrong here? There's plenty of fathers at 60. Are they incapable or something??

Why the quotes atoms "father" - he either is or he isn't. It's not difficult.

Rachel

Gay couple in adoption/being allowed to have a baby shocker. 😯 whatever next????!!!!!

Old news, who cares. They have as much right as you or I do. Get over it.

I thought Elton John came across as a really nice guy on the Live Aid documentary. I can't stand his music but I expect he hates mine too 😀 go for it Elton. At least the kid won't want for much.

i like elton.............good luck to em i say.

They have as much right as you or I do.

Are you sure that it is a "right"?

So far as I can see, they would be nowhere near the top of the list if they wanted to go through normal adoption channels in the UK. Leaving aside the issue of whether it might be good for a child to have a female "mother" figure to run to as it grows up, they are both knocking on a bit, and Elton at least has not been without a few problems in his personal life that would lead me to question very strongly whether he would be a good parent.

But it seems that it is OK for them to effectively go to the US and "buy" a baby.

How [i]might[/i] that make the child feel when he finds out about what happened in later life?

And BTW, I don't think it is a question of whether Elton is "nice" or not.

I suppose, but then, what's to have stopped him wandering into a seedy club on a Saturday night and having a one night stand in order to get a girl pregnant, I know a few girls who have used that approach, could You argue that that was any more 'morally' right? He is physically able to father a child so why shouldn't he. Lots of heterosexual couples use surrogates too. They might have gone down the surrogacy route because they weren't able to adopt, so what? But they can afford to make sure that their baby can be genetically One of theirs and chose who carries their child. Aside from a flimsy article you've read you know nothing about why they chose to use a surrogate or their ability to raise a child so why the need to post on an Internet forum? Other than to raise an argument.

So what's the question then, rightplacerighttime??

emma,

I wouldn't be in favour of him wandering into a seedy club and having a one night stand either.

Why do you think that citing some circumstances that would be worse than those we are presented with is relevant?

Why do you imagine that my discomfort is just to do with the fact that they are a gay couple?

Actually I think that is certainly an issue, but I'm more concerned about their age, their lifestyle and the fact that they seem to have chosen to "buy" a baby.

And as far as their "rights" go, I couldn't give a stuff - I'm actually more interested in the rights of the child.

Why the need to post on an Internet forum?

To see if my reaction was in step with my peers. Isn't that one of the things that internet forums are good for?

Rachel - I had a friend who had her child at the age of 40 - dad was 60. A blessing in some respects but I watched dad struggle to cope daily - he looked after the child whilst mum worked. Lovely couple and child and i'm sure all were glad the family had grown.

However bringing up a child is challenging at the best of times and I personally think 60 is too old. Dad died when the boy was 10.

Each to their own but it's a shame Mr J and D didn't decide earlier

But they can afford to make sure that their baby can be genetically One of theirs and chose who carries their child

Is it morally right because they can afford to do this- buy a baby?

allthegear

The question is whether they are fit to be parents. In my book that means more than deciding if they are "nice"

Personally I am deeply suspicious of anyone who decided to circumvent the normal adoption procedures or UK surrogacy procedures by going abroad. In particular, in California there are far fewer restrictions on surrogacy than in the UK - ie it is OK not just to cover expenses, but to pay the surrogate mother however much you like.

Old news, who cares. They have as much right as you or I do. Get over it.

They may indeed have the right to do it, but having the right to do something doesn't always make it right to do!

Todays society is very tied in up in having "rights" and sometime we all can be guilty of switching our brain off at that point!

Case in point are the recent cases of the Christian workers who have been sacked, etc because they have expressed their personal views to someone in the workplace and then have been disciplined for it!

Which is hard to comprehend in a country were rights and free speech are supposed to be protected, yet if you give your opinion on something you can be done for it?

I make that point, not to come in on the Christian side, but from any side, people should be allowed to make their personal beliefs known in a safe and free way, without threat of reprisal.

The rest of us are thereafter allowed to choose our own decision on it and live with the consequences

As a matter of interest, who in their relationship is the wife, or do they share the experience?

I just can't help that think peoples reaction would be different if they were not a gay couple. Different strokes for different folks, it all makes the world go round. Children are born to people for many different reasons. Maybe 'rights' isn't the best word to use granted but I'm sure that their child will have a good quality of life. No one is perfect so no one is fit to judge the situation, that's my only point really. I'm sure the little one will be fine.

Sorry, didn't quite mean 'fit to judge', but it isn't really our business as none of us are in their situation. We are all different. People go to amazing lenghths to have a baby, they just don't seem to be any dofferent to me' than a couple who go to some foreign country for ivf. I know plenty of people who, if they had the money would do it but sadly they can't afford to so will never have a child because they are classed as too old.

I just can't help that think peoples reaction would be different if they were not a gay couple

I'm sure that their child will have a good quality of life.

Based on what ? Elton John's wealth or do you know the couple personally and know that they'll be great parents ?

I think it's plain selfish to have a child at that age and [b]choosing[/b] for a child not to have a mother is despicable.

This isn't about saving a child from poverty or a life of misery, it's about consumerism.

No wealth doesn't make a lot of things right but it does make many things possible

I know plenty of people who, if they had the money would do it but sadly they can't afford to so will never have a child because they are classed as too old.

But quite often people are "classed" as too old because they are [b]actually too old[/b]. I know that that means that maybe there will be a bit of injustice in some cases, but personally I don't think the solution is that anything goes.

Personally I'm not looking forward to the day that 8 year old Zachary comes out dressed as Louis the 14th for his dad's 70th birthday party, though I'm sure the editors of Hello and OK are already busy pencilling it into their diaries.

Personally I am deeply suspicious of anyone who decided to circumvent the normal adoption procedures or UK surrogacy procedures by going abroad. In particular, in California there are far fewer restrictions on surrogacy than in the UK - ie it is OK not just to cover expenses, but to pay the surrogate mother however much you like

They wouldn't be allowed in the UK because of Elton's age, would they? And they have tried to adopt before (in the Ukraine), but again Elton was considered too old and their civil partnership wasn't regarded as a marriage.

It's hardly anything new, Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt have a veritable collection of adopted kids from across the world. Madonna's got a couple too. Callista Flockhart adopted a kid as a single mother in her late 30s, to which Harrison Ford later became a father to (at the age of 60). It may all be a bit odd to some people, but I can think of worse parents.

but I can think of worse parents

We seem to keep returning to this theme like it's some kind of justification.

*notes for future reference who the massive homophobes are*

Rightplacerighttime Who are you to judge who'll make good parents or not? For the record I think Elton John lives in America pretty permanently so he's not avoiding any rules really, he's abiding by local ones as far as i can tell. You mention his previous lifestyle, what's that got to do with anything?

I think statisically gay parents make as much of a success and as much as a failure of raising children as the rest if the population. Personally I think it's long term stability over most other things that makes a difference. Being the child of loving affectionate responsible people makes for happy families regardless of the sex of parents.

Yes 62 is quite old, but everyones parents die eventually and some 'before their time' to accidents and so on. Life goes on, y'know?

notes for future reference who the massive homophobes are

I sincerely hope that that isn't pointed at anyone for daring to have an opinion on the matter that doesn't defend the couple 😕

We seem to keep returning to this theme like it's some kind of justification.

Well, leaving that aside:

Age - yes, could potentially be a bit awkward, or Elton could live another 40 years in good health. Look at Bruce Forsythe, 80 odd and still working and dancing. Yes, the older you get the get the more likely you are to struggle to recover from illness and injury, but Elton will be able to afford the very finest healthcare.

It's easy to say, "Ah, but older people won't be able to play runabout with their kids, and will struggle", but so will fat people. Smokers are more likely to suffer illness and life threatening disease than most, and are more likely to cause damage to their kids with their lifestyle. Where do you draw the line between who should and shouldn't become parents? If you say, "Well, if they can't have kids naturally", does that mean you support a blanket ban on infertile couples adopting, or having IVF or surrogates?

Relationship - they've been together for over 15 years, seems pretty stable to me. The gay thing's a bit of a non-issue in this day and age, surely?

As long as kids have a parent that loves and supports them, and raises them to be a decent human being, does it really matter what flavour they come in?

You mention his previous lifestyle, what's that got to do with anything?

Are you joking?

Yes 62 is quite old, but everyones parents die eventually and some 'before their time'

Not many go on to live 'after their time' though, do they?

Yes 62 is quite old, but everyones parents die eventually and some 'before their time' to accidents and so on. Life goes on, y'know?

The gay thing's a bit of a non-issue in this day and age, surely?

I really don't know why anyone is bringing sexuality into it. The only time it seems to be mentioned is by those supporting the couple.

My argument is that kids should have a mom, Elton John is a bit old to start a family, money shouldn't enable you to buy life.

Could be worse, like the British gay couple who are going to the US to have gene therapy to screen their perfect idea of a baby, made it sound like an extra accessory, not a baby no matter what sex it maybe. Lets hpe Elton & David will be good parents.

You mention his previous lifestyle, what's that got to do with anything?

Elton could live another 40 years in good health

I didn't know he had a history of abusing children?

trailmonkey what do you mean a mom? a Mother ? are we american now?

Oi, I'll have you know that a good chunk of the West Midlands were using the term 'mom' before the Yanks! 😛

And I wouldn't agree that kids 'need' a mom - my mate was raised by her dad (her mother died when she was 1, her dad remarried when she was in her early 20s), didn't do her any harm at all. Just like I don't agree that the mother should automatically get custody in divorce cases - there's more to being a parent than your gender. I don't think that being in possession of a penis renders you completely incapable of raising a child without female assistance.

I didn't know he had a history of abusing children?

He doesn't, but he has a lot of addictive personality traits - alcohol, cocaine, bulemia, shopaholic etc. These are not insignificant issues.

+ age

+ (I would imagine) the frequent celebrity detachment from reality.

+ (and I'll add this only in terms of what any kid might feel like as part of any minority group) being a son of a gay couple might throw up a few problems of its own.

[i]Oh come on imagne he had a history of abusing children would that matter?[/i]

Oh right so now we're just making stuff up to cover for the predjudice?

So re-reading all of this it mostly comes down to his age then? And seeing as no one here has any idea how long he's got Left or how healthy he is it's really a bit of a non argument

Considering the about of charity work Elton does, I am sure he will be a good parent and roll model, and protect the child against the media and other negative influences, I say the child will be much loved and cherished.

emsz,

You are being dense - I think Junkyard asked the question "[b]imagin[/b]e he had a history of abusing children would that matter?" because [b]you[/b] appeared to be saying that someone's history shoudn't be taken into account when assessing whether they would be a good parent.

You mention his previous lifestyle, what's that got to do with anything?

So now we've got over that distraction, do you think that his past alcoholism, drug addiction and bulemia say anything about him as a potential parent?

And if you think that they don't say anything about his personality, do you think they are things that might have any bearing on his life expectancy?

Oh no emsz stw massive can see into the future and already know that Elton will be dead by 65 from his bulimia and shopping addiction, leaving the baby penniless and without a hope in the world. 😕

What a load of tosh.

Righttimerightplce I think that makes him a human being with all the normal human failings. I'd imagine you could find any number of straight couples with those personality traits as well

Emma's right, this is tosh

I grew up with a lad who's parents were really old, I thought they were his grandparents when I first saw them. They are no longer with us but then neither is my dad who was a "acceptable" age to have a child.
His parents were amazing and did a fine job of raising him.

age is irrelevant, sexual orientation is irrelevant.

Concentrate on your own lives not that of others.

trailmonkey what do you mean a mom? a Mother ? are we american now?

No, I called my maternal parent my mom on account of me being working class and from B'ham. Although I don't see why it should be an issue anyhow.

SO you are not against it re sexuality but they should have a mom - how does that work for gay men then ? sems like you have excluded them to me.

They may be excluded by gender, they're not being excluded by sexuality. There could be two brothers living together that wanted to adopt, I'd feel the same about that.

Oh DO get lost, you couple of tiresome homophobes. 🙄

trailmonkey's talking sense on this one. They are being totally selfish. To adopt a child in their position is one thing but to go out an engineer one is something totally wrong as far as I'm concerned.

And please, no one is being homophobic. The whole 'is it because he is gay' thing is getting really tiresome now.

Engineer? They used a surrogate!!! If your going to go down the whole 'it's wrong to create a human with scientific assistance' which is what you seem to be saying then we're heading towards a whole different argument surely?

But hey, this thread has it all, homophobia, ageism and prejudice against those with mental health issues. What is going on.

Elton is going to be essentially sponsoring a child isn't he?

I mean, he's not going to be getting up in the night to feed it, change its nappies, read bedtime stories, sit in A&E, iron school uniforms, make packed lunches and so on; he's going to pay someone else to do it.

...like many other children of the idle rich I suppose.

I'm sure the odd birthday party will be featured in Hello magazine, and cutely dressed little un will get in the papers tho..

But hey, this thread has it all, homophobia..........

Where ? You might accuse me of sexism by daring to suggest that children should ideally have a mom but do you know what, I'll live with that if I thought that that weight of opinion might make childrens lives' better.

But the Pilot is right, all this 'izzit cos dey is gay' stuff is pretty lame.

What about a female - female couple?

My dad died when I was 16. He was 59. I guess, going by the state of this board, he should have had me when he was 20 or something....

Lets ignore the gay aspect of it, however hard it is for people to do here. The biggest question is 'will the child have a good life'. He'll certainly not want for anything. He'll be brought up with a nanny I should think. The only views we have of Elton/David are the things on the telly, I don't know what they are really like so can't really say.

I even say that about Fatcha. I abhore her policies and she came over like an evil monster but I only saw what was on the telly. For all I know she's a really nice person. Saying that, look how her son turned out! 😀

The phrase about taking planks out of your own eyes keeps coming to mind here....

You might accuse me of sexism by daring to suggest that children should ideally have a mom

We don't live in an ideal world. And the most salient point is that the child is loved, not the gender of the person caring for it. And you didn't suggest that children should ideally have a mom, you put it a lot more strongly than that. How do you feel about fathers for example? Are they expendable?

FFS canigetoffendedforyouworld strikes again.

No we don't live in an ideal world, however for the nth time, this isn't about a child being saved from an imperfect situation, this is about a child being borne into one out of design. Yes i do feel strongly about it, it's horrible that a child should not have a mom, I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I'm sure that there are lots of fantastic fathers out there who have struggled through terrible circumstances to bring up kids on their own and have raised wonderful children but that's not the issue that we're talkin about is it ?

Trailmonkey - then please elucidate: what *is* the issue?

The point I was making is that there are lots of people who grow up in families which are not mom+dad +2.5 kids. There are plenty on here, including me. If you think that some of those families situations are horrible, and you wouldn't wish it on anyone, then I pity your ignorance because it is perfectly possible for those families to produce well balanced decent human beings.

Methinks the homophobe protesteth too much...

Trailmonkey - then please elucidate: what *is* the issue?

this is about a child being borne into an imperfect situation out of design.

There are plenty on here, including me. If you think that some of those families situations are horrible, and you wouldn't wish it on anyone, then I pity your ignorance because it is perfectly possible for those families to produce well balanced decent human beings

Of course there are and of course it is but how many of those situations were contrived ? Really, is it that bad a thing to wish that children at least have the chance of a mother ? Jesus 🙄
And my knowledge of a family situation being horrible is not borne of ignorance so reel your own in a little.

trailmonkey, you've made some worthwhile points about his age but this has me intrigued can you explain it

choosing for a child not to have a mother is despicable.

Because I think deliberately depriving a child of it's/a mother is a horrible thing.

Do you know what ? If that makes me a bad person then shoot me.

If you think it makes me a homophobe then you're a tard.

Over and out.

Well bugger me,(old northern saying)Congratualtions on David and elton becoming fathers, if baby Zachary could choose his parenmts who do you think he would choose, some woman, film or popstar, so far oop there own arse the baby is just seen as a token like a handbag, with a husband who is a bit thick, but has a saleable face. Quite a few around to see.

Or Elton and David 2 multimillionaires , who have wanted a baby and a child that the baby grows into for a long time. Two people who can pay for decent care, and a possible uni education in latter life.

Best wishes to them.

What about a female - female couple?

2xMum = Awesome > 2xDad

Because I think deliberately depriving a child of it's/a mother is a horrible thing.

clearly but why was my question, I had no father its not really bothered me, is that not as bad in your eye?

Trailmonkey, you'll probably find that a reasonable percentage of those situations were contrived, in that people with free will made the decision for the family not to be a normal unit. I'm sorry about your family situation. To speak plainly, your strong desire to see every family with a mother does imply that those without are incomplete, [i]lacking[/i] in some way which makes the situation "horrible". Would you feel the same way about two women, for example?

I just feel that a loving family unit is the important thing, the nature of its constituent parts less so. Whether Elton John and his partner can provide that is something none of us can know. And as others have suggested, there are factors involved that I'd see as being more relevant than the sex of either parent.

Over and out.

Re surrogacy Emma82, well what is it other that engineering? And yeah, with so many people on the planet and so many unwanted kids in the world I do think people should at least think before exercising their 'right' to have a child.
And re two women having a child, yep I think it's wrong to deliberately deny your child a father, just as much as it's wrong to deliberately deny it a mother.

To me, this smacks of self-indulgence. It will however provide employment a-plenty for all the outsourcing that will inevitably take place.

I'm tending to agree with trailmonkey, crikey and The Pilot.

But then, what do I know?

C_G
mother of 2 adult children brought up in the 'traditional' way.

So it's not about the parents being gay....but if me and my gf have a child, pilot and Trailmonkey think it's wrong, so it is about us being gay?

You can't have it both ways guys

What about a female - female couple?

I think it's wrong to deliberately deny your child a father, just as much as it's wrong to deliberately deny it a mother.

Why? Would you then force people in unhappy relationships (or indeed, no relationship at all) to stay together?

[i]We know a [s]lesbian[/s] couple who adopted.[/i]

There's no real need (other than in the context of STW...) for the sexuality of parents to be related or even considered. There is a significant difference between adoption and surrogacy, and even more difference between surrogacy and paid-lots-of-money-by-celebrities surrogacy.

Okey dokey, it's not an argument that anyone can win because peoples opinions are engrained in them so I'll leave it there. I'm sure elton and David won't give two hoots either way. They'll be too busy watching their nanny change nappies and make bottles 😆

Edit: 63 is far too old to be a father.

There is a significant difference between adoption and surrogacy, and even more difference between surrogacy and paid-lots-of-money-by-celebrities surrogacy.

I agree

He/she/it'll never want for flowers anyway....

To lighten the mood somewhat; I was grumbling to the gf who's taking up most the dining room with course work * points to mound of text books where there was once a gf* about this thread and she went White as a sheet

"isn't it a bit soon to be talking about families?"

Haha LOLing at her.

We know a lesbian couple who adopted.

There's no real need (other than in the context of STW...) for the sexuality of parents to be related or even considered. There is a significant difference between adoption and surrogacy, and even more difference between surrogacy and paid-lots-of-money-by-celebrities surrogacy.

crikey - just for the record, the 'fix' was not required. My response was direct to emma's earlier question - I was merely confirming the couple concerned are female and gay. I wasn't not making any other form of statement on the sexuality of the couple or their suitability to adopt...

Emsz it does look a little like you're playing sexual politics here. None of the remarks are neccessarily homophobic but it does look like you're trying to push that as an agenda.

I don't believe that same sex couples should be allowed to adopt either. I believe, like TrailMonkey, that children need both a mother and a father.

On that basis, I don't believe that single people should be allowed to adopt on the same basis.

That's got nothing to do with sexuality primarily and everything to do with what I believe to be important for society. But the byproduct is that in that world, you would have a policy that does treat same sex couples differently to hetrosexual couples. My whole life I've been an ardent defender of equality and in particular gay rights.

These views were formed early in my career when I actually acted as a witness for a close friend (who has since died of Aids) who was bullied out of his job because he was gay. He brought a case and acted as a witness for him at the tribunal. It cost me my job but I felt very strongly about what I had seen.

So, I am not sure whether believing that a child needs a mother and a father makes me homophobic or not in everyone else's mind, but it doesn't in mine.

I am not sure whether believing that a child needs a mother and a father

why do you think that?

have I stumbled on mumsnet or the Daily Fail website?

WGAF about stuff like this? Why are so many so quick to judge?

The couple are free to do what view have done. Plenty of kids born into worse situations.

Get over yourselves! This makes the VPP thread look heavenly!

geetee1972 - Member
Emsz it does look a little like you're playing sexual politics here. None of the remarks are neccessarily homophobic but it does look like you're trying to push that as an agenda.

I don't believe that same sex couples should be allowed to adopt either. I believe, like TrailMonkey, that children need both a mother and a father.

On that basis, I don't believe that single people should be allowed to adopt on the same basis.

So, I am not sure whether believing that a child needs a mother and a father makes me homophobic or not in everyone else's mind, but it doesn't in mine.

Posted 1 minute ago # Report-Post

So what happens when the kids parents divorce, row every day, become alchoholicsor druggies, or even one dies.

What happens to the kid the, the parent has to get married straightaway to give the child 2 parents.

Sadly gay bullying is still there from both sides it appears.